Erica: Hey, girl. By now, you know I have Her Collective, my online community for ambitious women who are done doing it alone. Her Collective is for the women who are smart, capable, and driven, but they find themselves stuck on the sticky floors like self doubt, burnout, and waiting for permission that quite honestly never comes. Inside HER, you get more than motivation. You get real support, real strategies, and real momentum.

We work on things like clarifying what you want now and what's coming next, building confidence without burning yourself out, navigating hard conversations, career moves, and leadership moments with clarity, and surrounding yourself with women who actually get it. This isn't about hustling harder. It's about moving intentionally with the right tools and the right people in your corner. If you're ready to stop spinning, start choosing yourself, and build a career in life that actually feels aligned, I'd love to welcome you inside her collective. You can learn more and join us at www.joinhercollective.com.

Because honestly, girl, you were never meant to do this alone. Oh, y'all. I got Kristen Ziman in the house today. And if you don't know, this brass ceiling breaker is, yes, I said brass and not glass, gonna rock your socks off. You're about to find out.

She is the first woman lieutenant, first woman commander, and eventually the first woman chief in her police department. But she has hung up her badge to create even more impact by sharing the lessons she has learned and the wisdom gained during her thirty years in law enforcement. We talk about the power of vulnerability and confronting the things you fear, how the opposite of belonging is fitting in, and how you can prevent living in someone else's templates. But my favorite, we talk about the juxtaposition of what it means to be human. Through Kristen's story of her father, her hero, who was also an alcoholic, and we talk about the beauty of second chances.

Welcome to the podcast from now to next. How are you?

Kristen: Wonderful. Living the dream.

Erica: Oh, well, I am so excited to kick off this conversation. You have spent your entire career in law enforcement. You are the author of reimagining blue, which is a super compelling story of your passion for the profession, but it's also a story about your life, which is really a lesson in perseverance, resilience, and a lot of what I call sticky floors. We're talking vulnerability, self doubt, shame, managing fear. It was so enjoyable.

So I gotta kick off by asking, like, what is your come up story? What is this journey to get us to today?

Kristen: Oh, gosh. That all sounds so very, complicated. So you know what? I'm just gonna hop off. I don't wanna talk about this.

It's too heavy. So so here's what's interesting and and kind of paradoxal about the whole thing is that, you know, I came from a father who was a marine and a police officer, And I learned very early on not to show emotion, don't ever let anybody see weakness, and then I followed in his footsteps and became a police officer. And one of the first things he told me was, there's no crying in police work and, you know, never let the bastards get you down. You know? All of those those mantras that just made me feel bulletproof.

Right? And then as I traversed through my career, I realized that, man, you know, that's not really the best advice because, you know, I started looking at other police officers who were grappling with mental health issues, and we've sadly had suicides. And so, ultimately, to answer your question, I I did thirty years in law enforcement. And when I retired just, at the 2021, I sat down and decided to just purge my soul. And what came out was all of the things you described was that father that that I mentioned was my greatest mentor, but it's also devil and angel because he was also an alcoholic with his own demons.

And so and not really the role model of a great parent. And so I sat down, and I decided if I'm gonna tell my story and that's how it started. I was just gonna tell this vanilla story about, you know, my life as the first female police chief in the second largest city in Illinois. And I thought, okay. This will be fun.

You know? And then what ultimately the the finished product became this vulnerable piece of work, which really was the only way that I could tell my story about how I got to where I got to build this kind of resilience and then to have this reckoning somewhere, you know, towards the end of my career where I realized, man, we we can't harden our hearts anymore no matter what profession we're in. So that's sort of the you know, how the book came to be.

Erica: I love it because and I told you this, but when I read it, I didn't know what to really expect. I'm like, okay. I'm gonna read this. You know? And I did the audiobook, which is awesome because I could hear your voice the whole time.

But it is so relatable for myself as a woman in corporate America. There were so many exact scenarios where I was like, that is me and that happened to me. And everyone here knows I'm not a law in the law. They're like, I'm in HR. Okay?

I hold down the law in corporate. Yeah. It's kinda the

Kristen: same thing.

Erica: It was yeah. But it was so interesting because there were so many parallels, and I took so many notes where I was like, that happened to me. You know, when you were told you were too much and to be less than, I was like, oh my gosh. There's just so many parallels to corporate. You know, you said you wrote this vanilla story.

This is not a vanilla story by any means. How did you feel, especially being told by your father, you know, no emotion, no weaknesses to just really pull back the curtain, open up the kimono, and bare your soul?

Kristen: So it's it's complicated, you know, but simple. I mean, it it's it's one of those things that I resisted for so long. And then what ultimately happened was I started to realize that especially, we had a mass shooting in my city. And five of my officers were shot and five people were killed. It was a workplace violence shooting.

And prior to that, I had been the chief for several years, and we had set out to change the culture and and to kind of move away from that whole mirrored sunglasses and attitude persona. And in doing so, I started to recognize that the only way that I could ask my police officers to be authentic and to show their compassion and, god forbid, that v word, their vulnerability, is that I had to display it. And the only way to to do that is to confront the things that I feared and to say them out loud. The problem that we have with leadership is and especially those who sit in positions of leadership is that we think that we portray ourselves as weak when we say words like I don't know or I need help. And I found myself leading my department in the middle of not only a mass shooting in 2019, but then this thing called a pandemic that I'd never lived in in the middle of.

And I didn't know of course, none of us knew in the early stages, is this gonna kill us all? And here I am sending my police officers on the streets because 911 calls don't stop in the middle of a pandemic, believe it or not. And so I stood in front of my police department and said, guys, I don't know what to do here. I don't know if I'm putting you and your families at risk. And what I learned in that moment, that was probably the most pivotal moment.

What I learned is that when you say I don't know or I'm scared, that people just they go out of their way to try to help. And it was my union board. It was you know, police officers have said, okay. Listen. Let's put our heads together, and let's figure out how we can navigate through this this time of uncertainty.

And that was probably the biggest lesson of of taking that risk. So it's a risk. And that's what I mean about simple but complex. Doesn't it seem so simple to say, yeah, guys. I I don't really know the answer.

And yet it is so complex because it is it literally goes against the grain because we don't wanna appear weak. And, especially, I was dealing with another stereotype throughout my career. I'm, you know, small stature, five foot four, a hundred and twenty five pounds, and people, I I assume, didn't take me serious. And so you add on top of that me saying, I'm scared. I don't know.

And then it feeds into that stereotype that I'm not fit to lead, especially in a male dominated profession. So that's why I resisted it for so long. And as it turns out, just by doing those things, it gave other permission other people permission to come forward and say, guys, this one's a little bigger than me. And the biggest, baddest dudes that I worked with then kind of you know, basically, I I think that leadership is overrated, and it's the first follower. And it was after our mass shooting that some of our officers said, hey.

I'm struggling. And they gave other people permission. And so so and I I love what you said, and I just wanna really kinda pull that string is that I wrote this book as a police officer. That's what I've known my whole life, but I am so much more than that. I mean, it's about women's empowerment.

It's about leadership, and I think that those leadership lessons that I've learned through failing and failing again transcend a profession. And so when I wrote this book, I kinda grappled with the title because I didn't wanna pigeon my pigeonhole myself into this book is for cops. And the the best, I I guess, most delightful thing that has come from it are people like you that have said, gosh. I I don't know nothing about policing, but I learned so much from this book. And so that was my end in mind.

It kinda makes me feel like I should have, you know, changed the title. But, but that's kind of how that all came to be is and I tried to encapsulate everything I had learned in this book and make it vulnerable so other people could practice that same vulnerability.

Erica: Well, I think the title's perfect, and I think the cover is perfect too because it shows you as a police officer, but it also shows you as a person, as a human being. So if you guys haven't seen the cover, you'll have to check it out because you will see this amazing she's split in half. Right? It's aligned right down the center. One side is full uniform, and the other side is just her.

Kristen: Just her. And it's so funny that and I I love the cover, but it also, for me, was an existential crisis of identity. I've worn a uniform since I was 17 years old and which is great because I never had to worry about what to wear. But it was this reckoning for my identity. It was I have now hung up my uniform and taken off, you know, my gun belt, and I am no longer a police officer.

And, man, that's a whole other podcast about identity, you know, and who we are and how we, you know, borrow our identity from our profession. But what's left of us in the end is is is really not bad. It's who we are as a human being. And so that's been quite a journey, since retiring.

Erica: Let me tell you what I've started practicing. And I heard this exercise wasn't even an exercise for this person, but it was somebody from Europe. And they said, you know, when you ask Americans, you know, what do you do, we lead with our profession. Right? I'm a human resource professional.

I host podcast. I do all of these other things. Then it's I'm a mom. I'm a wife. I'm a fitness fanatic.

I love to cook. When you ask someone who's, from Europe, they will lead with the things that they love to do, the unique things that make them who they are, not I'm a lawyer. I'm a doctor. So I've started to try to lead that way when someone asks me what do you do. I'm all of those things, and then I'm somebody who happens to be a human resource professional.

Right. That's alternative.

Kristen: That is that's incredible. And that is going to be an an exercise in in a deliberate and and conscious conversation because this is and I've been studying. I'm a nerd when it comes to studying flow. And flow is that thing that you do when you lose all track of time where you forget to eat, and it typically unless you're lucky, it's not usually your day job. Right?

It's the thing that you do after your day job that you you save up money for, whether it be vacations. And for me, it's writing. That's where I just fall I've just fall away, and I go into that that focused state of flow. And I love that. I think that we need to really start that trend, but it's so difficult as, you know, hey.

How are you? What do you do? And people tell you. So it's like you should say maybe when you lead a conversation, nice to meet you. Tell me about yourself without telling me what you do for a living.

And maybe that's how you lead it. Right?

Erica: It is. And I will tell you, it is it is so hard to break that habit and that pattern that that we have formed, but we can all get better. I like the leading question, though. So So one of the things you talk about in your book, you've already mentioned it here, the v word, vulnerability. You talk about feeling this need to change who who you were to fit in as a cop.

Right? And that you had this desire to fit in. Talk to me a little bit more about that as a sticky floor because I think for so many people, women especially, we have this mold to feel like we have to belong to something. And I heard the best quote by Brene Brown, and she said, the opposite of belonging is fitting in.

Kristen: That's right. Yeah.

Erica: And I thought, damn.

Kristen: Yeah. And taking a page out of Brene Brown's book is fitting in is giving up your personhood, you know, in order to be accepted, where belonging is being exactly who you are and being accepted because of that. And when I entered my career, this is all I ever wanted to do was to be a cop since I was a zygote. And when I walked in the door of that police department at the tender age of 17, I was a little sponge. And this is what we do.

This is innate in us. It's about survival. You know, we go into a situation, and this comes from our ancestors in the fight, flight, or freeze. Right? We look for who's a threat, and we just wanna fit in just enough so we don't stand out.

And so, you know, there's no threat, you know, no harm. And so it truly is innate, and and it's why we do it naturally. But exactly that point is that when you start to fit in, you give up who you are. So what I did when I walked in the police department was I started going on ride alongs with cops, and they were not vetted trainers. They were just like, hey.

Who's gonna take the, you know, the cadet out with them on Friday and Saturday? And, you know, somebody would be like, alright. I'll take her. And probably not the best example. You know, when you think you're in HR and you look at trainers and, you know, you pick the best of the best that, you know, that train other individuals, and these were not the best of the best.

So in in that situation, I started to just soak in the ways that they behaved, and I rode with officers that borrowed power from their position that talked down to people, and that is what I thought I had to do as a cop. I had to walk up to someone, and instead of starting an interaction with, you know, excuse me, ma'am. May I speak with you? It was, hey. You know, let me talk to you.

Come over here. And just think about in that that that small interaction, how that sets the tone where the conversation, what leads it which was what leads to an outcome. And but that's how I assumed I was supposed to behave. And throwing on that uniform gave me that sense of power, and power over is a terrible thing. Power with someone is what we should strive for.

You know, solving a problem together, but I it got it into my head that it was a power over kind of scenario, and I became unrecognizable to myself. And even, you know, as a rookie then, you know, it it was at at the age of 24 that I actually had this epiphany, in the backyards with a bad guy that I was chasing. And, he ran from me, and I finally caught him. And, he I could not take him into custody. He was over well over my stature, and I had to use my human influence to talk him into handcuffs.

And when I finally did, I asked him, I said, man, why did you stop? Why did you let me take you into custody? And I said, when you there's no one around. I said, you you could have hurt me. You could have killed me.

And he said, you know what? Nobody no cop has ever just talked to me like you did. And I thought, oh, what a little concept. Just talk to people like they're human beings. Treat people with human dignity and respect.

And it was in that moment that I thought, man, what I've been doing is not working. I started to to try to fit in instead of using my own personality. And at that point, I used my strengths, my compassion, my humor, the vulnerability by telling this guy, hey, man. You could kill me, but, you know, but you won't. You know?

You'll let me take you into handcuffs. And it was in that moment that I changed the way I behaved, and that changed the trajectory of my career. And I think that is a lesson for all of us and, you know, human dignity and respect, but also not giving up who you are when you walk into a new school, a classroom, an organization, a new friend group. Right? You lose yourself because, alright, I have to I have to fit into whatever insert this thing here, and then you find yourself laughing at jokes that you really shouldn't or not being a disruptor and saying things that you should because you're afraid of, you know, someone, you know, criticizing or ridiculing you, so you just remain quiet.

You know? And there are there are million different scenarios here. So that's why I think it's so important that we don't give up who we are.

Erica: That leads me to think a lot about self acceptance, which I think can also be really challenging because when we look at these groups that we feel like we need to fit in with them, it is because there are also pieces of ourself that we don't fully embrace or accept. And you talk about being imperfect. And you say in your book that the way to finding peace is to embrace the lightness and the darkness. So my question for you is, how do you figure out how to do that? Hey there, listeners.

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Kristen: Well, I mean, that's if I could figure out the answer to that, you know, first of all, I wouldn't have made the mistake over and over. That's why I call my life my remedial journey because I felt as though once I finally like, I had that big lesson, right, in at 24. And then I felt like, well, here I am again constantly revisiting the same lesson. And and it I was kind of ashamed of myself, but I was, like, calling myself a remedial. It's like every time I fall into this trap and, you know, then it became when I became a sergeant where I thought, okay.

You know, I was told by my lieutenant that I have to act a certain way, and so I fell right back into that role of, you know, living in someone else's template. And by the way, templates are man made. You know? They're they're constructed. You know?

You should act like this. An HR director should behave like this. You know? A a a police officer should behave like this. And when we fall into these man made constructs and we find ourselves, you know, limiting our our personhood.

How do you do that? I mean, how first of all, I think it takes a little bit of self, some some introspection, you know, where you can say, okay. I am not performing at my best, or I am withholding this part of myself, and I'm doing it so at the expense. So I think it takes a lot of self reflection to be able to say, you know, am I being authentic right now, or am I, you know, doing something to to fit in? Am I, you know, going along or, you know, acts of omission, you know, which is the same as allowing something.

And so I think it's that moment where we take that pause. It's you, Viktor Frankl. I'm a major student of Viktor Frankl in Man's Search for Meaning, and he says this. The greatest human freedom is to be able to choose our own way. So there's this moment, right, between stimulus and response where we can pause and we can reflect and we can choose the way forward.

And that's how it's been for me is that there is something that is not aligning with my molecules right now. My spidey senses are tingling. Call it intuition. Now I have to pause and say, am I doing what is best for this situation and for, you know, being authentic? And I I think that's what it takes us for us to be our own disruptor.

We talk about, you know, being disruptors to everyone else's. You have to be a disruptor and stand up, but, honestly, it's that little voice inside your head is the that's your biggest impediment. That little voice inside your head is an asshole because it knows your weaknesses. You know, it knows your insecurities. And so when you can stop in the middle of that and say, okay.

Am I am I doing, you know, what is authentic? Am I doing what what serves me and my character and my virtues, or am I going, you know, going along just to get along? So I think that's that pause, and that's the point I'm trying to make is you pause and reflect and then move forward.

Erica: So question. Do you believe in having your own set of core values?

Kristen: Yeah. I do. I mean, I think that you I think we're kind of comprised of of different ones. Right? We we fit into we have different cultures.

Your your family is your culture, and your workplace is your culture. You have your friend group that is own separate culture. So all of these cultures overlap. And so if we if we adhere to whatever our core values, our principles are, and we make sure that we're adhering to that in every single one of that, And, you know, think of it as a Venn diagram where you have all of these overlapping, but in the middle, there you are. And I think that you have to maintain and and be aligned with those principles no matter where you are, or else this is, like, where people say and I've heard this before.

You've probably heard this as I'm a different person at work than I am at home. Right? And I think, my god, how exhausting that must be to try to remember who to be based on where you are. So when you adhere to those principles, then you don't have to remember. You just are.

It's also impossible to leave your family self or your friend self completely out of the work environment. I was actually just reading a book by Patrick Lencioni,

Erica: The Advantage. It's right here. But he talked about how there was a CFO and a CIO that were at complete odds with each other, and it was because the CFO was such a stickler for budget as they should be, but overbearingly so. And the CFO finally shared that they grew up dirt poor, like, didn't have running water, didn't have food to eat, wasn't sure when they were gonna get their next meal. And by sharing that story of who they were, right, their come up story, it helped the CIO so much better understand, like, why they were such a stickler for every single penny was because he grew up wondering if he was gonna have food in front of

Kristen: him the next day. That's incredible. And it speaks to our blueprint. This is why we are the way we are. That's part of the reason I had to confront the demons in my childhood to understand that that resilience was built, and that was the positive side of it.

But there were so many negative sides. So when we lean into someone's story and better understand why they make the decisions they make, well, it's based on and that makes perfect sense. And so that's when you lean into someone's story, and now you can better understand. And this is so pivotal. I love what that you bring this up, especially at this particular moment in time.

And this this time, history will not look favorably upon this time in in the world right now where we are so divisive because if you have a different candidate, a different, you know, political party, a different beliefs, then you you are ostracized. You are over here. Well, tell me tell me why you believe that. And once I hear the why, I think that is so interesting, and it makes perfect sense. It's not something it's not something that we share.

I don't believe that, but let me tell you why I believe what I believe. So it's leaning in and and listening to each other's stories. And then I imagine that that relationship between those two, you know, pivotal titles, they were able to better reconcile outcomes going forward by saying, okay. Listen. You know, I know that you're you're here because of this, but let's talk about how to find this middle ground and also respect how we got here.

Erica: It allows for just that space of understanding, which I think it it it allows us to live in the shades of gray. And humans are not black and white. We are so complex. And when you just dig a little deeper and you get a little bit more curious about the people around you, the whole person, not just the CFO person or the police officer or the human resource person, you get to understand why they operate the way they do. Again, like you said, you may not agree.

We may not share that same viewpoint, but now I can understand you.

Kristen: That is one of my principal course, the virtues that I try, and I and I got it from Stephen Covey from, habit four, I believe, of seven habits of highly effective people. Seek first to understand and then be understood. And when I find myself getting frustrated by a particular viewpoint, that's exactly what I tell myself. That is that mantra that I revisit all the time. It's just seek first to understand.

And once we do that, man, it it really does change our perspective about the other person and and and come to an understanding that their journey to this particular moment, is comprised of, again, their their own lens that they see the world. But once you understand it, it makes it, you know, easier for all of us.

Erica: One of mine that I love is believing the best in people. And I can imagine in your career, in particularly, that coupled with seeking to understand brings me to this piece that I really love to focus on is the worst thing that somebody does in their life does not define them, and it is not who they are. But we love to latch on to that.

Kristen: Sure do. Yeah. Like, just

Erica: I can see all of that coming together so perfectly in your world and in mine, to be fair. A lot of people, when they're in front of HR, it's not because they're having a a glowing moment in their career.

Kristen: That's right. Yeah. I had such a lesson because I because my father was an alcoholic, I and we I was just having this conversation about my my career. My life has been so much black and white, law enforcement. Here is the law.

You have violated the law. Thus, you are now a criminal. It's this label that we have fixed to people. And, like you said, you know, your worst day, we would never wanna be judged by what we have done on our worst day. So the it was I've had so many moments of, like, just paradigm shifting moments, and this one occurred as a commander when I was put in charge of drug court.

And I had to take every individual and look at their police record. And I had to determine whether they were gonna allow them, and these are individuals who have committed a crime, but they either have a they have a substance abuse problem. And once they are admitted into drug court, they get some leniency, and they have to go through a program. Well, when I started this, I said, no. You've committed a crime.

You're denied, and I'm not putting you in there. I I don't care that you have a a drug problem or an alcohol problem. And then I had to interview these individuals, and this is when I learned because I my dad was an alcoholic, so therefore, I I raged against alcoholics and so and I thought this is a choice. And so then having conversations with people and learning that, you know, this was a destruction of their family, and they don't even remember when they took their first drink or their first hit of and now they have taken this this this path in life as become their existence because of, you know, this problem that they've had. And then I started to look at them as people.

And I started to realize that these are people who have committed crimes as a result of being addicted to a drug, so stealing and selling, you know, the the profits to buy drugs and then having conversations. And that is where I realized that we cannot be judged on our worst day. And so that has been a lesson over and over in my life is that we we really need to number one, second chances, you know, and we we need to lean into the the why behind it, kind of, you know, learn what the core reason is. You know? Is it socioeconomic?

Is it you know, all of the things, that lead a person down a terrible path, you know, of bad decisions and somehow, again, being a disruptor in that pattern and on that journey.

Erica: When you wrote your book, how terrified of you were you of sharing it with your family and your friends?

Kristen: Yeah. Really terrified. So as I said that when I when I sat down and it was super vanilla, the first draft, because it was just like, hey. Here are some leadership lessons that, you know, I have both failed and succeeded. And it was, like, this thing that was super safe.

And then I realized, it was actually listening to, Glennon Doyle's Untamed where, you know, she said, like, you just have to kind of put yourself out there. And I was listening to, to that, and I came back, and I literally rewrote my book. And I was like, I have to tell all of the good, the bad, and the ugly. So I did that, and then I wrote this manuscript. It's like when I said I'm in flow when I'm writing, it's like I just, you know, pounded away at the keyboard.

And then the next thing I knew, I had this 70,000 word manuscript, and I didn't know what to do with it.

Erica: And 70,000 words is a lot too.

Kristen: I know. I had a lot of shit to say. Two books. I know. Right?

And so I I had this thing, and I didn't know what to do with it. And so I funny is that, you know, I did what I defied throughout my whole life is, I did what a normal person would do, and I put it out on Twitter and said, hey. I have a 70,000 word manuscript, and I don't know what to do. Please help. And literally, people came out of the woodwork and said, hey.

I had I know an author who knows a publisher who bought and so then I worked with this publisher, and, you know, they polished it up. And then they, you know, put a a book cover on it and a title, and it wasn't real. It still wasn't real until the day that the box of books showed up at my house, and then I wanted to throw up. I literally was like, oh my god. Is there any way I can take all of these back and not, you know, make them for sale?

Because it was it was different when it was just me and the editor going back and forth. And when my kids read my book, they said, mom, you have never told us about this stuff. And I'm like, I know. That was by design. And I I, like, I didn't, you know, I didn't want to talk about the negative parts of my childhood and, you know, the embarrassing things and the things, you know, that were just so hard for me.

And so that vulnerability became the thing that made me wanna take it all back, and then it became the thing that resonated with people. So that book probably no. I don't think people would be would read it or buy it or say good things about it if it didn't have that component because I think what it did is unlock, you know, other people to be able to go, okay. You know what? I I I get this.

And so, I hated it for, you know, a minute, and then I just learned to embrace it. And that's the first thing that people say when they read it is, my god. It was really vulnerable. I'm like, I know. I know.

Erica: I was gonna say that first one sounds a little boring. Mhmm. The first word that Exactly. That's a little dry, and I've read a lot of leadership books. I've read a lot of dry leadership books.

But I listened to your audiobook in maybe two days. Like and that's with me running around with the kids in the house. So it's an amazing book. One of the things you also talk on, which is what I always call one of my stickiest floors, is worrying about what other people think. And that's why I led with the question because, damn, that's a hard one.

Kristen: Yeah. That has been the remedial lesson throughout my life is what are people going to think. And I have now developed a lot of, you know, exercises that get me out of that. But it took a really long time because for so long, I I hid who I really was. You know, as you see, I have kind of I I mean, I've had I've suffered many identity crisis in throughout my life, you know, but I left, you know, my heterosexual marriage, and I entered into a relationship with a woman.

And I was ashamed. I was hiding it. I was changing pronouns so people didn't know. And, you know, so all of these things that I had to grapple with because I was literally this phrase in my head is what are they going to think? And it was actually Brene Brown reading her book.

I think it was either it was Daring Greatly, or it may be it may have been The Gifts of Imperfection where she said, you know, who is this they, and why do you give them so much power? And I sat down, and I comprised a list of the people in my life that genuinely care about me and want me to be happy and to succeed. And I also included on that list because you cannot have these people without having these same people that call you on your bullshit. The people who look at you and say, you are not living up to your values and your principles, and and you're not your best right now. Those people.

And I made a list of them. And interestingly enough, all of the noise falls away. When you when you then you say, who are all these they's, and why do I give them so much power? And then when you create your list of they's and you know you're right with them, the rest of the noise falls apart. And suddenly, it doesn't matter anymore what everybody in in the sidelines or on the sidelines is saying or doing or pointing and laughing at you.

It's like, okay. You're not one of my they's. And so until you're in the arena right next to me, you know, then you don't get to have an opinion about my life. And if you do, it's certainly not going to affect me because you're not one of my they's.

Erica: Oh, I love it. And I think It's powerful. I was gonna say, when you actually own who you are, that's truly taking the power and really being good with that. Mel Robbins often talks about being a chameleon, and I used to pride myself on being a chameleon. I could fit into any conversation, any room.

And what I realized as I got older is that did put me in a lot of different places, but it also made me a really good liar, like, a really good liar. And that's what Mel Robbins says. It's like, you're really good at lying. And I was like, damn. I am.

Like, I would have people they had no idea what I was really thinking or doing, and I was just there, which is not the way to live. It's not the way to be a true authentic, be your own person.

Kristen: Yeah. That's the whole fitting in puzzle.

Erica: You know?

Kristen: It's like you're literally and I love the chameleon metaphor that's even better. You know? But that's exactly what we do is we just you know, we don't wanna cause too much trouble. We don't want to speak out when we know we should speak out. I mean, how many times, you know, have you walked out of a room of a conversation and and you scold yourself, like, I should have said something, you know, either where someone has spoken unfavorably about someone that you should have have stuck up for.

Right? You know, all of the things that we put ourselves in this situation instead of being our own disruptor or a disruptor in that moment, you know, we remain silent. And then we lose ourselves, and that's just it. It's that chameleon is a real problem.

Erica: That damn chameleon.

Kristen: I know. God.

Erica: So my last question of the day, which this has been just an amazing session here, is if you had one piece of advice, just one, that you could go back to the 17 year old cadet, Kristen, what would that be?

Kristen: I think well, there there are many, but I think that is probably the number one is remaining first of all, it to say who you are and to remain true to who you are is is a little counterintuitive because at 17, you don't know who you are. Right? So, I I was just listening to a podcast, and and I think it may have been Adam Grant pushing back on this is, you know, we we keep saying be yourself. Well, what if you don't know who you are? And so here's what I would say is I I he got me thinking about that.

I've been marinating in this for days. And because you don't know who you are, I think it what it does is it behooves us to try to figure out who we are. And there is nothing wrong with looking to others, those who you emulate. So what I started doing at at a as a young cop is I started looking at the the police officers that were the most successful. And by successful, I mean the kind of people that talked people into handcuffs.

And the biggest, baddest cops, showed great communication skills and vulnerability, and I started to emulate them. And then I started looking at the best bosses. Okay. That's the person everybody wants to work for. They bring out the best in you.

Well, why is that? And then I would start to emulate those qualities. And so I developed this sense of looking to others as examples of who I wanted to be. And then, ultimately, what happens is you become a little bit of all of the best around you. And so when you can spend that time saying, okay.

I know that doesn't serve me well, being a parent. My my youngest is 22. So the jury is, I would say, kind of, still out, maybe, you know, maybe. But but I think my kids are so they're well adjusted, and I can look at I looked at my parents who I love dearly, but I can say, wow. That did not work.

I'm gonna do the opposite. And instead of becoming a victim, and I guess this is probably the advice as you you boiled down, is that you can live in that learned helplessness. It's because I had a bad childhood, then, therefore, you know, I'm gonna have, you know, terrible adulthood. You know? I I'm this victim.

Or because I've been treated poorly, I have this grievance, whether it's real or perceived. We tend to fall into victimization. When I think what the lesson here is that you can take your power, and you do not have to be a victim of your circumstances, And you can change the the outcome by changing through a deliberate action. And if you don't know who you are, well, then look to other people and, you know, and look to successful people or people that you want to emulate and and try to become a little bit of all of them. And and I think that's probably the biggest lesson is you don't have to fall into learned helplessness is, you know, my circumstances, I hate my job, I hate my life, and therefore, I'm stuck.

You absolutely aren't. You have all of the power. It lies within you.

Erica: Love that. Love it. Well, Kristen, I will link your book, your website, and all the places to find you in the show notes, but thank you so much for being here.

Kristen: Thank you very much for having me. I love this discussion. It went by so fast. I could talk to you all day.

Erica: I did. Right? I am so glad that you tuned in today. Make sure that you follow me on Instagram, LinkedIn, and all of the socials for more content just like this. And one last thing before I let you go.

I want you to remember, you are special, you are already perfect, and you are enough and becoming more all at the same time.