Erica: Hey, girl. By now, you know I have HER Collective, my online community for ambitious women who are done doing it alone. HER Collective is for the women who are smart, capable, and driven, but they find themselves stuck on the sticky floors like self doubt, burnout, and waiting for permission that quite honestly never comes. Inside HER, you get more than motivation. You get real support, real strategies, and real momentum.

Erica: We work on things like clarifying what you want now and what's coming next, building confidence without burning yourself out, navigating hard conversations, career moves, and leadership moments with clarity, and surrounding yourself with women who actually get it. This isn't about hustling harder. It's about moving intentionally with the right tools and the right people in your corner. If you're ready to stop spinning, start choosing yourself, and build a career and life that actually feels aligned, I'd love to welcome you inside HER Collective. You can learn more and join us at www.joinhercollective.com.

Erica: Because honestly, girl, you were never meant to do this alone. Welcome to the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors podcast, the podcast where we get real about the challenges women face in work, life, and leadership. I'm your host, Erica Rooney, HR executive, keynote speaker, and executive coach, and I'm on a mission to get more women into positions of power and keep them there. This is the space where we call out the paradoxes: being told to lean in but not too far, to speak up but not too loudly, be ambitious but not too ambitious. Does that sound familiar?

Erica: Yeah. We're over all that. Here, we break down the sticky floors that keep us stuck, from imposter syndrome and perfectionism to burnout and fear, and give you real strategies to shatter those glass ceilings once and for all. So if you're ready to rewrite the rules, own your power, and take your career and life to the next level, you're in the right place. Now today's guest is tackling the core problem with leadership.

Erica: We are constantly focused on everyone else but ourselves. Now what I love about this is that she has built the single most popular leadership program at Harvard, proving that self mastery is the ultimate strategic advantage. Margaret Andrews is on a mission to revolutionize how we lead. As an author, a speaker, and an educator, she shows that when you truly understand and manage yourself, you unlock the effective leader that only you can be. Now she's got a new book out.

Erica: It's called Manage Yourself to Lead Others, and that just sounds amazing. It makes my little HR heart so happy, but this is going to be the playbook for the inner to outer transformation that we all need. Margaret understands the truth that leading others begins with the inner wisdom and grounding that you gain from managing you. So Margaret, welcome to the podcast. I am so pumped to be talking about this. How are you?

Margaret: Awesome. I'm doing well, and thanks for having me.

Erica: Oh my gosh. Well, let's kick it off. Tell me about the book. What is it about, and why do we all need to be reading it?

Margaret: Yeah. So I'll start with, you said something about being ambitious but not too ambitious, or speak up but not too loudly, kind of things. Right? I think many of us have heard these things. And in fact, that is how this book came about, and it came out through the class.

Margaret: And it happened many years ago, when I had a job where I was leading a lot of people and parts of the organization and things like that. I had a great boss, and then that boss left, and I had a new one. And let's just say that new boss and I didn't gel that well. And so it went from a really pleasurable job to one that was a lot harder. And one time sitting in his office, he looked across the desk at me and said, "you're not self aware."

Margaret: And he didn't say it in a, oh, you may not know this, but let me help you with it, kind of way. It was said in a sort of, you're broken and can't be fixed, type of way. Then he went on and said that I was overly ambitious, didn't understand how I came across, etcetera. So I was pretty stunned, as you might imagine. And when I left his office, of course, I was pretty upset by it.

Margaret: But as I thought about it more, and it took a while, right, this did not come to me right away, I realized a lot of what he said, in particular about not being self aware, really was true. My relationship with that boss was very much underperforming. But I also had a couple of people on my team that I think were kind of anxious or felt underappreciated.

Margaret: And that was absolutely not my intent, but it was what it was. And so I realized, okay, this is a situation at least partially of my making, and I want to change the situation. So that's when I started really looking at all kinds of different things around leadership. I looked at academic studies and management books, and I looked at people I knew and famous leaders, and psychology and sociology, and pretty much anything that could be helpful. And as I was looking through all of this, it really came out that understanding and managing ourselves comes first.

Margaret: And then when we have that down, we can start to lead other people. So I started a class with that, a normal fifteen-week class with papers and those kinds of things. And then several years later, I boiled it down to a two-day executive program, which has become very popular. And ultimately, then I did some speaking around that, and then the book. So each time I feel like I'm taking that out to a wider audience.

Erica: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I love that because it shows you that it's working, and then you take the next step and it's still relevant. It's still working, and you keep going bigger and bigger. So I mean, are you overly ambitious? Maybe, but I think it's a good thing.

Margaret: Well, actually, that's the funny thing. That was the one I think I had the hardest time with, because I remember saying, I've always thought ambition was a good thing. Right? And I continue to believe that. So I will say, I'm not sure I was overly ambitious, but I heard the part about not understanding myself well and maybe not understanding how I come across to others. But the ambition part, I still disagree with.

Erica: 100%.

Margaret: Right? Nothing in this world of consequence happened without ambition. So why would that be a bad thing?

Erica: Absolutely. Alright, I love this concept of starting with yourself, but let's say you're a woman leader. You're in it. How does one start with managing yourself? What is that first step I need to take? What do I need to do to truly understand who I am as a person and in the workplace? And is that different? Do I need to take that into consideration?

Margaret: Yeah. I use a lot of questions in the book. So the first three questions are really: what type of leader are you? What type of leader would you like to become? And then the third question is, of course, what's going to close that gap? What's the delta? What are the behaviors? And behaviors in particular, sometimes they're skills that need to evolve or change to become that leader, because I do believe that all of us have it in us. So those are the first three questions.

Margaret: Then I have six questions around understanding yourself. And these are huge questions, right? So you'll understand when I tell you what they are. The first question is a huge question. It takes a lot of time and effort and sometimes courage, because you're shining a light inside of you, and sometimes we don't like what we see. So to really keep looking and saying, okay, yeah, but that's there. So the first question is around who, and whose thinking, has shaped you as an individual. So of course, it's parents, caregivers, siblings, aunts and uncles, extended family, childhood friends. And also, you spent a lot of time over at your friend's house when you were younger, probably their parents as well.

Margaret: It's coaches, people on your sports teams, it's teachers. I can't tell you how often people have told me, my third grade teacher said I wasn't good at X, and it took me forty years to figure out that that wasn't true, and maybe never was. And the first question also includes movies you've seen, talks you've listened to, books you've read. So this is a huge question. And I will tell you that my own answer to that question is six pages of single-spaced type. So that's a lot. And it includes people that helped you and people that hurt you. And sometimes you can have some people that are on both sides of the ledger, right?

Margaret: And so this, I think, is the hardest question for people to really grapple with, because many people do have some things in their past that perhaps are even traumatic, and shape them in a very difficult way. And I oftentimes think about that quote by the British author C.S. Lewis, who says, "you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending." And I think that to me is one of the most powerful messages, is about agency. So that's just question one. So that can take a lot of time.

Erica: New here, Margaret, I'm like, oh gosh, I've already got a lot of homework. But I need to know question two.

Margaret: Yeah. Question two is around what situations and events have shaped you as well, or influenced you. And these are lucky and unlucky accidents, which happen to all of us. The lucky accident that I hear quite often is somebody says, I really didn't want to go to that party last night, but my friend made me go, and that's where I met my spouse, right? So you wouldn't have met your spouse if you had not gone. Or, I turned left instead of turning right, and that changed everything. And unlucky accidents too. You got really sick before the big interview and you blew it, or a car accident, or those kinds of things. So lucky and unlucky accidents.

Margaret: The third one is around your own personal definition of success in your personal life and your professional life. Very oftentimes people go with things like, I want to get to this level, or I want to start a business. And I say, well, why? What's underneath that? Because very oftentimes you're talking about a value, or validation that people will think I'm smart, or that I'm going to prove everyone wrong, or something like that. But also in your personal life, what does it mean? Lots of times people say, I want to retire with X dollars in the bank, or I want to have great family relations. And I say, what does that really mean behind that, to your definition? Because your definition may be different from mine, right?

Margaret: So that's the third one, on definition of success. And the fourth one is somewhat related, and that is about core values. What core values do you have? And to a certain extent, are you actually living those core values? This is a really hard question for a lot of people to answer, because we're just not asked this very often. Advertisers and influencers and parents oftentimes tell us what our values should be, so we don't often think about what they actually are. So I have two things that I think can be helpful for people to look at those. One is, if we looked at your calendar, what would we infer were your values? Or, as I say, what crowds out what? Because what's doing the crowding out is actually a value. And sometimes people say, oh, but my work crowds it out, and I don't want that to be my value. And I think, well, but maybe it is, right? There's no right or wrong here, just what yours are. The second one is to think about what makes you mad, because very oftentimes what makes you angry is actually someone or something stepping on a value. So what makes you angry? So those are around values.

Margaret: The fifth question is around emotions. To what extent do you understand and actually feel your own emotions? And when people say, gosh, I don't know, and then I say, well, now we do know, right? If you don't know, the answer is probably not much. And this was a hard one. Lots of people end up in the, oh gosh, I don't. And I say, that's fine. In fact, I oftentimes say congratulations, because now you know where you're starting from. If you don't know where you're starting from, you don't know which way to go. And then the last question is around feedback, and that is about what type of feedback have you received in your personal life and your professional life. And very oftentimes this one points back to question one, about influences, and how you behave as a leader or in your personal life. And it also oftentimes points back to question five, around emotions, because sometimes our feedback is about how we don't understand how we come across. And I oftentimes ask people, well, really, it's around question five: who knows you're mad first? Is it you, or the person you're with? If it's you, you have pretty good self awareness around your emotions. If it's the other person, maybe not. So those are them. You can see why this is not a quick fix.

Erica: No, it's not a quick fix, and I wrote them all down. And one of the ones I circled and put a big arrow next to was on what is your own definition of success, both personal and professional. And the reason that stood out to me is because I've spent a lot of time coaching my own people on, how do you want to feel at the end of the day? What kind of impact do you want to have? What do you want to pour into? Nobody asked me those questions, and I never stopped to do it myself. And so then when I was at the height of my career, living in what I call burnout city, that's when I had that big epiphany. So my question for you is, how do we get people to start reimagining success, or at least defining it for themselves earlier in life, and considering the other aspects of success, not just work and finances?

Margaret: Yeah, I think that's a great question, and I'm not fully sure how to answer that, because I do... we may not have the answer today. I think, you know, there's that old saying, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And I think that is so true. And in fact, that's generally why I don't teach this topic to undergrads, because I oftentimes think this sounds so obvious. Just think back to when you were young, early in your career, and you looked up and said, when I get there, I'm going to do it this way. And then you get there and realize, oh my gosh, this is so much harder than I thought. There are so many moving parts. And I think that sometimes my favorite people to work with are oftentimes people that have kind of hit the wall. They've just kept doing the same thing, and this is what made me successful, and they keep hitting that wall, and realize, wow, I think I need to try something different. And oftentimes it's going back and looking at these kinds of questions that help people say, oh, that was my definition of success, but it's different now. We have different stages, or seasons, of our life, whatever you want to call it. And I think we do change over time. I'm glad of that. I'm glad I'm not my eight-year-old self.

Erica: Right? If I think about my definition from when I was maybe eight years old... I think I wanted to be the first female football coach of the Florida Gators.

Margaret: Oh, that's pretty cool.

Erica: Don't ask me why. There's the gator behind me, right? But it would have been a totally different thing. It's a cool one for an eight-year-old. But that morphed into being a nurse, which morphed into so many different things. My definition of success has changed so many times over the years, but it never encompassed how do I want to feel at the end of the day. And I think that's a big piece that's missing when we're talking to our kids about success, because for me it was always achieve, achieve, achieve. It wasn't about how you felt.

Margaret: Yes. Or what you really want to leave behind. Right? All of these things, not just how you want to feel during the day, but what are you ultimately trying to do. I think that's a big thing. And to ask people why, why do you want that. And probably when they're 18 years old they might say, oh, because I can make a lot of money doing that. We all had that at some stage of our life. But then you realize sometimes, oh, that's really not all it's cracked up to be.

Erica: No, like, I can make a million dollars, and I can be just as happy making half of that. And I can even still be happy making half of that. It's not always about more. But one thing I wanted to ask you, and it's because you say self understanding helps you become a leader that only you can be, and I'm like, yes, I'm here for that. But I think that in today's world, so many women feel like they have to conform into these boxes, and they have to shape shift and be somebody else to be considered a leader, to be considered successful, to have her shit together, whatever you want to say. How does your process give them that inner strength to lead authentically?

Margaret: Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is that understanding your own answer to these questions, who am I, how was I shaped, and also, part of that is which beliefs no longer serve me. Which ones can I just put to rest right now. And so I think when you have that understanding, it roots you. You are more grounded, more comfortable in your own skin, really. And that doesn't mean that you don't want to evolve, because I think when we stop evolving is when we start dying. We should be improving all the time, and I don't mean that as a you're-not-good-enough kind of thing. It's, what do you want to do next kind of thing. So I think we are more rooted, more grounded. And also there are times when we play a role, but it's important to know we're playing a role. And I think when you understand these things, you understand that sometimes we are playing a role.

Erica: And that's okay. And that's actually needed sometimes.

Margaret: Sometimes it is needed, when you're working with certain types of clients or whatever, right? There's always this balance of warmth and, what I'm trying to find, knowledge, I want to say, that you're...

Erica: I believe my good friend Allison Forgale calls it, you need to be a likable badass.

Margaret: Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Erica: And confidence all wrapped into one.

Margaret: Yeah, exactly. And you can be that. It's that old saying of, you can disagree without being disagreeable. And I think when we understand ourselves pretty well, we're less sort of knocked off balance by other people, and realizing that other person's behavior says more about them than it does about us.

Erica: It does. And I think as women we have to remember this, that this is the system we're living in and working in, and sometimes you have to play the game to change the game. And that's what I've learned. I could not just show up as my full authentic extra Erica loud self as an individual contributor at the beginning of my career. But when I got to the C-suite, I had the privilege of power to where I could be more authentically me, and I could show up in that way. But one of the questions I have for you, Margaret, is in these moments of extreme pressure or stress, do you have any actionable tools or tips you can share with us to help women separate themselves so that they can make more grounded decisions?

Margaret: Yeah, so a couple of things. One is, I'm big on getting whatever really powerful emotion you're feeling, sometimes it can be overwhelming, so I always say, get it out of your body and onto paper. Just take out a piece of printer paper and write whatever you are feeling, no matter what it is. And then I say, if you're worried that somebody's going to read it, that is what paper shredders are for. But you've gotten it out, right? And then sometimes when it's on paper you can see it differently. I think of it as, if you have a problem you're grappling with, you might call a friend of yours and say, hey, here's what's going on. And your friend can tell you very calmly, hey, have you thought about this, or have you tried this? We do this for our friends. To me, when you get it out on paper, you can be that friend to yourself. And when you see it, it helps you through that. So I'm big on that. Also, sometimes just going for a walk, or a swim, or a run, or just working it out, physically.

Erica: The body.

Margaret: Yes, exactly. Or close the door, close the curtains, turn on some dance music and dance. Whatever it is, you can find it.

Erica: I love that. Write it out, shake it out, dance it out, but get that big emotion out so that you can approach it in a very calm, grounded manner. That's awesome.

Erica: And then when you think about these toxic workplaces that some people are in, where maybe individual contributors have been promoted to manager because they're really good at their job but not so good at managing people, what do you do if you're stuck in a situation where maybe you're underneath someone like that, who maybe doesn't know that they don't know themselves, aside from being like, look, here's this really good book by Margaret Andrews? Like, what would you tell that person who's kind of stuck in that position?

Margaret: I think that is one of the hardest things, being in an environment like that. So a few things. One, I don't think there's any silver bullet here. I think understanding that most people are doing the best they can under their circumstances, which we've all perhaps been in those situations where we're overwhelmed, and we don't show up as the best version of ourselves. And that's probably what's happening with that manager. This happens all the time, by the way, the best accountant is promoted to lead the other accountants, and they're great accountants, but maybe not such great people leaders. So I think it's understanding that they probably don't have it out for you, even though it may feel that way. I think most people do not have it out for us, even though it can feel that way. So it's just kind of understanding that, because it gives you a little bit of distance from it.

Margaret: But I also think that there are times when we should go. If it's really starting to impact your mental health for some longer period of time, you have to weigh this. And I totally realize that this is not always an option for some people. You may live in a place where there's really only one company, or you need health care, or for all of these different reasons, right, and that's a real thing. So I would say, in those situations, think about learning. What can you learn? Because that will make you more valuable when you ultimately either apply for a different job or start off on your own. So is there somebody that you can learn from? It may not be your boss, right, it could be a skip level, it could be a peer, it could be somebody in a different department. Start really ramping up your network, because you never know what's going to happen with positions that open up, or people that leave, or something like that. So when this is bad, expand. Expand your knowledge, expand your network. But most of us have been in that situation before, and it is truly awful. It's really bad. So I feel for people. And I think that's why a lot of people end up going off on their own. They just say, I can do this better on my own.

Erica: Absolutely, 100%. I want to go back real quick to talking about core values, because that's one of your steps, and I love talking about core values. But if you had come at me before I started my own business, I would have been like, that is a bunch of fluff that is thrown up on the wall at corporate offices, blah blah blah. It wasn't until I actually sat down and did them that I was able to identify and move faster in my life and in my business, because one of my core values, for example, is courage. It's to do the courageous thing. And so whenever I feel like I'm stuck or teetering on a decision, I ask myself, is this what a courageous person would do? And then I have to make that decision, yes or no. That's great. I don't think people stop and do core values for themselves. So do you have an exercise in your book for core values, or do you have a way you recommend that people can really drill down to figure out what core values are actually important? And I don't mean saying, like, oh, family is my core value.

Margaret: Which is the common...

Erica: Don't we all love family? They're all our core values. But outside of that?

Margaret: Yeah, so there are the two that I mentioned, but I'll say more about them. One is, we looked at your calendar. Great example of this, and we can have lots of different values, and they may be in different order. You talked about family. Almost everybody says that, because let's be clear, we're supposed to say that. We're supposed to say that. But the thing is, they can come in priority. A great example of that is the calendar thing. So if you were to ask my husband and me what our core values are, both of us would say health and fitness. But if you looked at our calendars, it would tell a different story. My husband, we've been married over thirty years, and he's an ultra marathoner. He works out six days a week, pretty much no matter what is going on in the world or in his life. He'll wake up early, he'll stay up late, he'll work around things, etcetera. He's done this the whole time I've known him. So health and fitness is huge, and it shows up in his calendar. Me, I am also interested in this, but my work crowds it out sometimes. Does that mean I don't care about health and fitness? No. But it means it's not the top one for me. And that is just who I am. As I say, your values are your values. There's no right or wrong to them. And I tell people, listen, if family, or health and fitness, or any of these things are not showing up as your number one, congratulations. Now you know. So you can stop feeling this guilt of, I'm supposed to feel this, but I actually feel that. And then the thing about being angry, I think, is also one that, when you read a story or hear about something or witness something and it just makes you boil over, that is because you're looking at or hearing about something that is crushing a core value of yours, and so that's why it's making you mad.

Erica: I think about the capital director at the Toyota dealership a while ago, because my car was broken and I needed to go somewhere. I was going to have to have a rental car, or my husband was going to pick me up. And they were like, well, we can't give you a rental car until we diagnose the problem with this vehicle. Now look, I am very lucky, my husband could have picked me up, I could have ridden off into the sunset, it would have been no problem for me. But I was so mad, because I was like, what about all the single moms out there who have to be at work, who have to pick up their kids, and you can't give them a rental car? And then I finally was like, okay, listen, I'm sorry, this isn't a me problem, it's not a you problem.

Margaret: But it is, it is both. What you're saying is it's a value, because you could do it, right, you had a backup, but a ton of people don't. So what you're saying is, this isn't fair. There's some fairness or equity thing going on there.

Erica: Exactly. But I love that as an identifier. Oh my gosh. Alright, Margaret, what is next? We've got this book out, you lead the course, what is next for you?

Margaret: I don't know. I've had a lot of people saying, are you going to write another book? And I think, I don't know.

Erica: Like, people ask you if you're going to have a baby right after you have a baby.

Margaret: That's right. You're going to have another? It's like, oh, I can barely think right now. So I don't know. But I'm enjoying this. It just came out a couple of weeks ago, and people are starting to discover it. And what's really cool is a lot of former students, of which at this point there are thousands, are talking about it and saying they've read it, and it's kind of rekindling this. But my favorite was one former student said, oh, finally this is out. And he said, I'm going to send it anonymously to a bunch of previous bosses. So we'll see.

Erica: Listen, I'm here for that little petty clap back, but oh my goodness, Margaret, thank you so much for being on the podcast. If today's conversation lit a fire under you, here's your next move. Don't keep it to yourself. Share this episode with a friend, drop a review, buy the book, and let's keep this conversation going. Remember that your potential is limitless, and the only thing standing in your way are those sticky floors. But guess what? You have the power to break through them. So go out there, take up space, and let's shatter some ceilings together. Thank you, Margaret.

Margaret: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.