Erica: Hey, girl. By now, you know I have Her Collective, my online community for ambitious women who are done doing it alone. Her Collective is for the women who are smart, capable, and driven, but they find themselves stuck on the sticky floors like self doubt, burnout, and waiting for permission that quite honestly never comes. Inside HER, you get more than motivation. You get real support, real strategies, and real momentum. We work on things like clarifying what you want now and what's coming next, building confidence without burning yourself out, navigating hard conversations, career moves, and leadership moments with clarity, and surrounding yourself with women who actually get it. This isn't about hustling harder. It's about moving intentionally with the right tools and the right people in your corner. If you're ready to stop spinning, start choosing yourself, and build a career in life that actually feels aligned, I'd love to welcome you inside her collective. You can learn more and join us at www.joinhercollective.com. Because honestly, girl, you were never meant to do this alone. Have you ever been let go from a job that you care deeply about? This can be one of the most heart wrenching things and so difficult to recover from. Today's guest, Deanne Kissinger, EVP at Solvay, an uber successful woman, was once told to either take a step down from her leadership role or to take a step out. She talked about how that impacted her. The lessons that she learned from the one event that changed the trajectory of her life. And I wanna say this episode, it's not just for or about someone who experienced determination. It's about forgiveness. It's about empathy. It's about growth. And most importantly, it's about the really beautiful things that can come from hardship. Deanne's resume resembles what you would imagine any high achieving successful EVP's resume to look like. It's growing in responsibility. She's gracefully moving up the corporate ladder, adding to her skill set with every rung that she climbs. She has lived and traveled all over the world, really. And on paper, this career climb we all dream about, she's got it. But we know that appearances can be deceiving, and Deanne's story has a bump that feels a bit more like a gut punch, but I'm gonna let her tell you all about it. So, Deanne, welcome to the podcast. I am so thrilled to have you here today. Let's kick it off. Who are you, and what do you do?

Deanne: I work for Solvay, which is a chemical company based out of Brussels, and I'm based in Atlanta right now. I've worked for Solvay for the last two and a half years or so, leading HR for one of the largest global business units, which is about 6,000 employees and approximately €4,000,000,000 in business. My career's pretty much started in the commercial side of the business long time ago, and I was a sales representative and then a sales manager and somehow found my way into HR over that time. Never expected to be in HR, but, but love it and this and is actually something I'm really passionate about. So it's, been a fantastic journey. A little bit more about Solvay. It's a company that most people don't really know about because it makes the products that are in products. It makes polymers, which are plastics, and, it is known mostly in Europe for baking soda. So lots of parts of products like insides of smartphones, fibers for hemodialysis machines. It's also in aerospace and defense, so parts of airplanes, a lot of different products that people don't necessarily know that Solvay is a part of. As I mentioned, I'm in HR, a strategic business partner. What that means, my responsibilities are leadership, culture, diversity, equity, inclusion, and organizational effectiveness. And Solvay itself is going under a change, so it's gonna split in two shortly in the next few months here. And once it splits, I've been asked to lead talent for one of the organizations, and that means a move to Brussels and a brand new set of responsibilities where I'll be looking after talent management, talent acquisition, learning and development, performance management, employee engagement, and then kind of our rotational programs and how we become a skills based organization. So I am really excited for the next chapter.

Erica: Wow. That is so cool. And it's a permanent move, right, for, like, the unforeseeable future.

Deanne: Yes. It's gonna be a fantastic opportunity for us to live in Europe, again. We've lived in The UK previously, but really looking forward to it.

Erica: So cool. So I alluded a little bit about this in the intro, but what is this bump in the road that we speak of?

Deanne: Early on in my professional life, like I mentioned, I was in the commercial side of the business in sales. And, what happened was as a sales representative, I was promoted maybe after about two and a half years to a sales manager role. Things are going pretty well. I was, you know, taking over a district that had people who had applied for my job and didn't get it, people who I had trained with previously, people who had less experience than I did. And it was a really big, big opportunity to learn the skills of management and leadership. After about two and a half years or so, the company was sold. And at that time, my district wasn't doing particularly well. It was at the bottom of the ranking report, so never something that you like to see. And as time went on, I realized things weren't going particularly well and, had a conversation with my manager at the end of the year. I think it was probably only about halfway through the year, so I think it was May. And, he said, you know, you have a choice. You can either take a step down, or you can take a step out and, take a package and, you know, move on. And I was gobsmacked. I knew that I was on, you know, performance kinda watch or action plan, whatever you wanna call it, but I didn't realize that was where we were. And at the end of that performance review was just completely in shock. And still to this day, it makes my heart beat a little bit faster, and I could feel my face get red when I talk about it because it was an experience that I just never thought would happen. Here I was close to 27 years old thinking I was climbing, you know, doing the job that, many people had aspired to be a sales manager in a pharmaceutical company. I mean, it seemed fantastic. I was working incredibly hard, and I bought a house, all these good things. And then somebody tells you, you know, you're not good enough, you know, and you feel like a failure, and it kinda creeps into what you think about yourself. So it was incredibly hard, to get over that, and it really was a learning experience that created a catalyst for the rest of my career. So first of all, I thought I don't want anybody ever to walk into a performance review and get shocked like that. I just maybe I was naive. I don't know. But, I look back at that time and needed to forgive myself for, you know, whatever part of that I owned, and I did own a large part of that. But the organization owned that too in terms of providing me with feedback and ensuring that I knew exactly where I stood with the organization. So that was a challenge. But the learning experiences that I got, like I said, shaped my career, enabled me to kind of put into perspective, you know, what I wanted next. I had attached so much my identity to that role. You know? It was back in the time when we didn't have cell phones. We were always checking our voice mails. And I remember I went on a trip, personal trip as soon after that and thought I had to check voice mail because that's just what you did when you went to an airport or when you went to, you know, a Starbucks or something like that. You checked your voice mail, and I didn't have to do that because I decided to take the package and go. And it made me go to graduate school, which enabled me to live abroad, went to Australia for graduate school, realized that I loved being overseas and interacting with different cultures, and that's at the stage too for having an international global career. So many positive things came out of it, but, you know, you use the word sticky floor. It was something I really had to move through and get through.

Erica: I mean, I feel uncomfortable. Yeah. Because I know you, and I know that you have this caliber of excellence about you and that you want to do a good job. And Yeah. And it's not like you were doing it thinking you weren't putting your best foot out there and your best foot forward, so then you get this feedback that's

Deanne: Right.

Erica: Like, I just imagine how crushed you must have felt.

Deanne: Yeah. Yeah. Completely crushed. Everybody wants to do a do a good job. You know? You believe that they set out to do good work, and it just wasn't happening. And, you know, I'm sure that other people have experienced that, that they've been in a role that just didn't feel right. I mean, at the time, it felt right to me, but I knew it wasn't going well, but it still felt like a positive job. I have really enjoyed my team and enjoyed the work that I was doing, but I knew that it wasn't going right, so that was a mismatch. But, you know, people have that where you're part of a project that's not going well or you're part of a job that maybe isn't going well or role that you've put into that doesn't feel exactly right. And knowing that and being able to recognize that it isn't doesn't mean that's the whole story for you. You know, it's just a little piece of the story. It doesn't have to be the whole story.

Erica: Yeah. Hey there, listeners. If you have ever felt like you're stuck in a place, held back by self doubt, perfectionism, or that pesky inner critic, you're not alone. We all face those sticky floors that keep us from reaching the heights we dream of. But guess what? It's time to shatter those limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities. My book, Glassy Leads and Sticky Floors, is your ultimate guide to smashing through barriers, overcoming limiting beliefs, and stepping into your full potential. This book has been endorsed by none other than the great Mel Robbins, best selling author and motivational powerhouse. It's also been featured in Success Magazine, so you know it's packed with insights that work. Inside, you'll find real life sticky floor stories, practical strategies to help you navigate your own sticky floor moments, and a whole lot of inspiration to keep you climbing. This isn't just a book. It's your roadmap to success, confidence, and freedom. Grab your copy of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors today at www.ericaandersonrooney.com. Whether you're in the boardroom, the classroom, or just starting out, this book is for you because no one, and I mean no one, deserves to stay stuck, no one deserves to feel small, and you have glass ceilings to shatter. Let's do this. Do you feel you were the right person but the wrong role in that instance?

Deanne: I feel like there was a lot of things, that I would do differently when I look back. You know, I think the fact that I was working so incredibly hard but potentially on the wrong things, you know, not paying attention to the right things. I think I also felt like I knew what I was supposed to be doing, but, didn't ask for the right kind of help. You know, when you're having a hard conversation with the sales representative and you're sitting there in the car after a sales call. I felt like those conversations went well, but I probably wasn't focusing on the right things to drive the business in the right direction. So, you know, I it's hard for me to remember now what that would have looked like, but that's kind of what I recall back from then. And I also so I would have asked for more help. I would have, paid attention probably to different things. And, also, I would not have wrapped so much of my identity into the role, definitely not. Because when that went away, I really had to stop and say, okay. Who am I right now? I'm not this person who's doing this all the time. And what do I want out of my life? And, you know, is this gonna be a turning point for me? I knew I couldn't step down to be a sales representative. I just thought that wouldn't have been a good fit at all, wouldn't have been fair to the organization or to myself. So as much as it was difficult, it gave me some time to really think and put things into perspective.

Erica: I feel like you learned a lot of lessons in one quick moment.

Deanne: I sure did. I was telling a previous manager of mine about that story, and, you know, he said, you know, he kinda got smacked in the face with a whole bunch of stuff at the same time and things that he had said that he learned throughout his career, and he'd been very successful as well.

Erica: Very short

Deanne: period of time. Really quick, a big smack, and, and it was hard. It was really hard. And I think the learn from that has helped me, like I said, throughout my entire career. And I'm glad in hindsight. You know, people say, you know, would you do it differently? Would you wish to yes. Of course. I wish it didn't happen. But I do appreciate the fact that those lessons were learned early on Because particularly the one about how much identity you put into your work, because to learn that at 27, I've had twenty five years, you know, more after that to know that there's work and you can do your hardest at work, and you can also, have a life outside of that's really important too.

Erica: So let's dig into that because I think it is incredibly hard to separate yourself from your work and what you do and, like, to have that outside identity because we spend so much time at work. And I will be really interested to talk to you after your move to Brussels because I heard in one place that Americans if somebody comes up to you and you're talking at a party, it's very much like, who are you and what do you do? I mean, that's how we started this podcast. Right? Like, that's just what we do. But I heard over in Europe that more so people start with the things that they love doing that is not attached to their work.

Deanne: I don't know if you know the answer to that. I think it depends. You know, if in a work context, people will probably talk a little bit more about, you know, what their role and that kinda thing. I'll be interested to see because I lived in The UK for about five years, and I lived in Australia for close to four years. And I don't remember making that distinction so much, but I do know that their culture in general cultures outside of The US, they have longer vacations. They have, things that they're, you know, really passionate about that are kind of more in the forefront. I remember living in Australia, and the hours that you worked were less. I don't feel like we accomplished any less. It was still very high performance, but, you know, they come into work a little bit later because somebody would go surfing or riding their bike or running. And so work didn't start till closer to nine. And then, you know, at 05:30, everybody was gone. I'm at the desk at 7AM, and it'd be lucky if I can, you know, stop working before six. So it's just that little bit on the tail ends that really adds up over time.

Erica: So how do you create that distinct I don't wanna call it a separate identity because it's not that, but how do you really become secure in a life outside of work as a lot of who you are?

Deanne: That is a really good question. I think I continually you know, if tomorrow you told me that it went away, it is to me, it's always knowing that, during that time that I didn't have that work and I was getting ready to go to graduate school, I was never bored. You know, I was involved with things. I was active in volunteering. I was seeing my family and my friends reconnecting with the things that really gave me passion and reminding myself of that frequently or going, you know, to like, last couple weeks, we went to Colorado and spent some time with friends. Doing things outside of work is incredibly important and remembering that you have so much to offer that it is not your job that you are. It is who you are as a whole person. So I guess it's not a great answer other than really just remembering that there is more to you than what you bring to work. And I think it's probably I can't speak to it because I don't have kids. So I would hope that women who have kids and have, large families and etcetera feel that, you know, that sense of family, that sense of, you know, purpose of having kids. I don't have that part of it, so it's easier in some respects for me to align so much of my identity to work because I don't have that same type of responsibility when I come back to the house. So I have to be really careful with that and remember that it isn't who I am. I'm a cat mother, but I'm a wife, a daughter, a sister, a friend.

Erica: Yeah. I think a key is to really be multi passionate. Right? Because you can be passionate about what you do, and I think that's the key to really being fulfilled at work is to be passionate about what you do, but not have that be your only passion.

Deanne: Yeah. Because I'm incredibly passionate about what I do, but I like doing the things outside of work too. And then no less. Yeah. Yeah.

Erica: One of the other things that you said that I wanna hone in on is forgiving yourself. And I think that can be a really sticky floor for a lot of people, especially for people who put so much pride into their work and the output to have something like this happen. And, right, we're in this landscape now where there are so many people who are unemployed because of layoffs and all these crazy things, and you're attaching your worth to that and you're wondering, what could I have done differently? How would I have shown up? How did you move through that forgiveness process?

Deanne: I have to be honest to say that didn't come to quite a lot later where I looked back and said, you know, I was younger. I was making a huge jump in my career, and, you know, forgive yourself for not knowing everything. You don't have you know, you didn't know everything at the time. And I think that's really important, and it put me in a good frame of mind because I was made redundant or laid off from other roles in the future. I was like, yep. Okay. I know it's gonna be okay. This is not the end of the world. It will be okay. And so looking back and finding that way to say, you know, it's okay. It's not the whole story. It's just a piece of your story. And other people are going through it as well. It is not just you. Even well although it felt like just me when that happened, you know, to myself, but layoffs, you know, there's other people it's happening to as well most of the time. I realized this forgiveness piece when I so I'm part of this networking group, or community called the hundred coaches, and it was started by Marshall Goldsmith. And it's this amazing group of executive coaches and business leaders and thought leaders. And going into that group, I had this, you know, sense of, wow. I don't this isn't the type of group that I'm normally involved in. You know, I'm in corporate, in a in a business, and these are other people who've written books and, you know, amazing careers, etcetera. And we have these things called hundred coaches connect, which will be smaller groups, like maybe eight to 10 people who will share their life story with each other. And then the rest of the group gives coaching on how you could potentially, you know, do more or make a bigger impact or help achieve the things that you wanna do out of life. So it was my turn to go in my connect group where I was gonna share my story, and I thought, alright. I'm gonna share this part of my story, which I had buried deep because of the embarrassment of, you know, having gone through this thing where I felt like I wasn't enough and I hadn't been good enough and I'd been a failure and all this shame that was attached to it. But I thought I'll share this story here. And I felt the face get red. I felt my chest tighten and really felt that stress as I was telling this story to these people who are, you know, really amazing, successful people. And, I got through the story and went to the part where we were gonna give feedback, And, they said, you know, that experience that you had, they kind of acted like, yeah. And? You know? Because here, there's these fantastically successful people who are like, yeah. Everybody's had that. Everybody's had a time, if you're gonna be successful, that you've had a failure, that you've been, you know, laid off, that you something didn't go right, something went wrong. And they were kind of nonplussed about it and completely nonjudgmental. And I'm sitting there thinking that this was the end of the world. I know. I would

Erica: say, did that blow your mind? You're like, I just poured my heart out. You're acting like, you know, it was just a little thunderstorm. Exactly.

Deanne: I was like, what? And so it was such a, fantastic an environment that was completely nonjudgmental about it, and, also, because you're not alone in that. If you strive for great things, along the way, you're gonna fail. And it feels like the end of the world and that this is the end, you know, that this I'm not gonna be able to recover from this. But it doesn't have to be that way, and other people are experiencing it as well. And if you look back and I don't know who said this because I know I've heard it. But if you look back and, you know, never had a bump along the way, are you risking enough? You know? Are you taking the big enough chances, and are you putting yourself out there? Because if you put yourself out there and you fail, at least you did it. At least you went out and did it. And, I call on those types of experiences in other ways in my life. Like, for example, the first time I went to The UK, I'd come back from graduate school. I'd gotten a highly skilled migrant program visa. I went to London because I thought I wanna live in London. I had three months of rent that I could afford, no job at all. And I thought, if I don't find a job, I've gotta come back and go to a friend's wedding that was planned, and I won't have had a job. And, you know, what's gonna happen if I go out to London and don't get this job? I got a job right at the very end of the three months, and one of my friends before I had left for London had said, you're taking this risk and moving over there without a job, without any prospects, with a place to live and trying to find this. If it doesn't work out, at least you did it. And that's the kind of examples that I think, yeah, at least you did it. At least you put yourself forward and you put yourself out there. And if you fail, everybody else has failed too, and you know that what it means is that you've strived, you know, that you've actually tried to achieve.

Erica: And I think an important thing to look at too is if you're surrounding yourself with people who are only ever nothing but successful, that they are not playing big. If you are the only one in your group that has a failure somewhere, then you would need to level up your group of people.

Deanne: Exactly. Because failing is part of it. And I often think that because I learned those lessons earlier on, that really gave me such a different perspective. And if there's people who've constantly succeeded and never had a failure, do they learn those same type of lessons?

Erica: No.

Deanne: I don't I don't I think it's hard to learn that without the type of failure that you'd feel if you're really putting yourself out there.

Erica: And it's also very hard to be empathetic for people who are doing that. I have a friend. His name is Ryan Leak, and he wrote a book called Chasing Failure. And he tells his story about how he wanted to work with the NBA. And, like, he wanted to be in the NBA and play for the NBA. Spoiler alert, he does not. So y'all would know the name if he did. But instead, he now does executive coaching with NBA players and teams. And it's like, sometimes your original dream, you know, is not where you were supposed to land and, like, it can grow and evolve. But he got out there and he reached out to all these NBA players to practice with them to try to do all these things with them, and now he's in a completely different life path that is perfect for him. Yeah. Yeah. So understanding that all of those failures are leading you to where you need to be. Yeah. So as a leader, have you ever had to be the person doing the termination and having the same conversation that you've had with you?

Deanne: I've not had to have the kind of conversation where the reaction was, you know, a gobsmacked because that part, I'd always been incredibly clear. You know, I'd like to think that I have been. I mean, maybe somebody will say that, no. It wasn't, which I would be really surprised about, but I hope I hope anybody that I've had that type of conversation with, kinda knew that was coming when it's performance based. If it was something where it was a layoff that we had to do, you know, sometimes people don't know that's coming and it's a shock. Those are a little easier to take, and then it's not the individual. You know, it's an a corporate organization that's made, you know, decision, and there's usually a larger number of people who are also impacted. It doesn't make it easy at all, but it makes it potentially a little bit easier on the ego because it's not you per se, that you didn't succeed. It was the organization itself isn't succeeding, and this is an outcome of it. Yeah. And I don't wanna diminish that in any way because it is really hard to deal with, being laid off. But yeah. I've been on the other side. It certainly has made me more empathetic. It certainly has enabled me to hopefully say things that are more comfort to the people who are going through that because it's a hard it's a hard thing to have to go through.

Erica: Absolutely. I feel like this conversation is so timely because I had a group that I worked with earlier this week, and one of the questions that I got from one of the women in the group was, what if I really do take a role and I find out I'm not ready for it when I'm in it? And I was like, that could be terrifying because you might get into a position and you might not be ready or it might not be the role for you. And it could be an instance like with you where you didn't even really realize that it wasn't your place. Right. But I told that person, I said, well, then at least you've learned. And it again, this is one of those things where it's simple, it's not easy, and you will have to process through the emotions. And like you said, the not feeling good enough, not attaching your identity to your work, you'll have to work through that either way. But where I think it has been hard and I know for me is failures have always been they've always felt like a step back instead of still a step on the right path.

Deanne: Yeah. Really. It's not a failure. It's a fail forward. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you. And it is difficult. Like, if you're put into a role where you are aware of the fact that it's not either a right role or you feel like you're underwater and don't lose like I did. Ask for help. Continue to ask for help. I'm hopeful that lady that you talk to continues to ask for help and find what it is about that role. If it's not a right fit, what are the things that don't make it a right fit? And if it's not if it's you're buried and you're underwater, how do you get more support? How can you delegate some things? You know? And if it ultimately isn't the right role, then find a different path and don't treat it as a as a failure. Treat it as an opportunity learned something different about yourself that you wouldn't have known otherwise.

Erica: Well, we can't be great at everything. We sure try. Yeah. We try, and I think we hold ourselves up on these pedestals into these unrealistic expectations that if we're in this role, we should be good at it. And that's not always the case. And we think that we should be good at everything that we do. Well, Deanne, what would be the one piece of advice? Because I already feel like you dropped 17 gold nuggets here today. But what would be the one piece of advice that you would give the 27 year old that is, I imagine, sitting in this office on the brink of tears as you hear this information? What would you tell her?

Deanne: I would say to her, you will survive. You will get past this, and this is not the whole story. This is a tiny little piece of the story, and this is gonna make you stronger to accomplish even more things. It may not feel like it right now, but trust me, it will.

Erica: I have a second part to that question I wanna ask you.

Deanne: Okay.

Erica: Why did the 27 year old imagine that her life would have turned out the way yours has? She would not because

Deanne: she was going to a job interview after that was terrifying. Terrifying. Like, I always thought that I was pretty good at job interviews and feel like I've gotten better, you know, over the years. But at that point, if you put me in front of somebody for a job interview, I was so broken up inside that I couldn't figure out how was I gonna answer the question. So what's brought you here today? You know? Why are you looking for an opportunity? I felt so uneasy about answering that type of question, and what was I supposed to say? She would have been in that state, would have never imagined that I would have, you know, lived in four different countries that I like to say speak three languages, but that's, American and more English and Australian. And, that's not really not as many as I'd like to have learned, but I'll be learning French here pretty soon. She wouldn't imagine that. She wouldn't imagine that the traveling that I've been able to do, the people that I've got friends all over the world now. She wouldn't have known that. You know? She would have felt like, you know, this is it. This is the marker. And, the path that I was on, the career path that I was on, that I was gonna be this incredibly successful, probably on the commercial side person, she wouldn't have seen that. No. Yeah.

Erica: I just I don't think we give ourselves enough credit. You know? We don't dream big enough.

Deanne: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, I'm thankful that I didn't stop taking risks, though. And that's the one thing that I think you know, that's why I give the advice this isn't the end and you're gonna survive because I didn't stop taking risks. And had I stopped, then it would have been a totally different totally different ballgame.

Erica: I love that. Well, where can people find you? It's gonna be Brussels.

Deanne: It'll be LinkedIn is the best place to find me. Certainly, I'm happy if anybody, reaches out on LinkedIn and say that they heard me on your podcast. That's always a good way because, we do get loads of people reaching out. So say that we heard about you on the podcast and reach out on LinkedIn. That's the best way.

Erica: I love it. You have such an incredible story. Thank you for sharing it.

Deanne: Thank you for having me.

Erica: I hope that you enjoyed Deanne's story as much as I did. It really shows what amazing things can come when you least expect it. Please make sure that you rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast as it really helps it land in the hands of the woman that needs to hear it most.