Aoife O'Brien: I did a survey on LinkedIn. I know it's not very scientific, but 86% of people responded and said that they didn't feel like they were fulfilling their potential at work. I think there's a lot of untapped capability, and I think beyond that, as individuals, we maybe don't know how to articulate what we're really good at and what value we bring to an organization, what we do differently to other people.

Erica Rooney: Welcome to Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, the podcast where we stop playing small, start calling things out, and actually do something about it. I'm your host, Erica Rooney, executive coach, speaker, and a little bit of a movement maker, and I'm on a mission to get more women into positions of power and keep them there.

Erica Rooney: How many times have you been told to just be more confident, to push through the imposter syndrome and just be yourself, okay? Act like you belong in that room already. Y'all, that advice is so easy to hear, and it is so common, but y'all know that is not how it works. Today's guest has spent 20 years inside corporate organizations.

Y'all, she has done over 300 podcasts. She's got a best-selling book that really came to one very specific conclusion, and that is that we've been asking the wrong person to fix the problem. Aoife O'Brien started her career thriving, y'all, which don't we all? But she has worked for companies that invested in their people.

They recognized their contributors and their contributions that they were making, and they gave her room to grow, and she thought that every company was like that, but was she wrong. Her last few corporate roles left her hollow, burnt out, dejected. Her contributions, they went unrecognized, and she experienced misogyny, empty promises, and being passed over for promotions, and I know that is not something that y'all on this call are unfamiliar with, okay?

Her confidence was shot, and because so much of our identity is wrapped up in our work, it really started to affect her life outside of work, too, and so she left. She spent the next several years researching why and what leaders can actually do about it. She is the founder of Happier at Work, a global consultancy based in, y'all, Dublin, and she hosts the Happier at Work podcast, which is a top-rated podcast, top 2%, y'all, and it just won one of the best business podcasts of the year. Her debut book, which is called Thriving Talent, is an Irish Times bestseller, and y'all, it makes the case that the problem with work is almost never the people. It's the environment in which they are asked to perform. So Aoife O'Brien, welcome to the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floor podcast. How are we doing today, my girl?

Aoife O'Brien: Thank you so much, Erica, for that amazing introduction. I don't think I could have done a better job myself. And I'm like, “Who is this person that you're describing?”

Erica Rooney: Who is this woman? I want to be her and know her.

All right, girl. Well, I wanna start with your own story because so many of the women who listen to this podcast are probably living that middle part of your story, right? The part where it started to get messy, and I want you to talk me through that, right? You came off having an amazing experience, and then things shifted. What the heck happened?

Aoife O'Brien: So let me say two amazing experiences, and that's what I thought work was like. You know, I was ambitious, I was being recognized, all of those things you said. And in the first situation, I landed somewhere, and within about two months, and I'm sure people can relate to this, within about two months I was kind of like, “Something is not right here.”

I could not place my finger on exactly what was going on, but I knew that something was not right. On the positive side of things, people were approaching me. They were asking me questions about how to do the work, how to use the software. I was like, I'm here two months and people who've been here for years are asking me these questions, so that was certainly a good sign.

But what actually happened really was, and this was in hindsight, so maybe if you're in this experience, maybe you don't really know how to find the language to explain what's going on. But when I looked back, it was an old boys club. That's the only way I can describe it. Old boys club, misogynistic. And I think things really came to a head when a friend of mine, he was my colleague, he was also my friend, we had worked together previously in London as well, he was promoted into a position that I had been promised.

And so he became my boss, but that was not communicated to me. And I found out because he pulled me into a meeting one day and started asking questions about my clients, and it turned out that he was asking those questions because he was my new boss. Of course, me being me, and having had all of those positive experiences, I complained to the person who had promised me this promotion, and he said, “This guy's really more your supervisor. He's not really, if you want to have a leader, if you want to have a manager, you go to his boss.” And I thought, “What's the fucking point of that basically?”

Erica Rooney: That's like some bullsh*t where they're just trying to like, “Oh, it's not really what you think it is. He's just a...” No, absolutely not.

Aoife O'Brien: Yeah. So as you can imagine,

Erica Rooney: too, though.

Aoife O'Brien: he was my friend as well, so it was quite awkward. And I think part of the issue, so if I was working in the US, for example, I would need a visa to work there. And so this was all happening in Australia, and I needed a visa to work there, and they probably thought, “She needs a visa. We're sponsoring her visa. She's not gonna kick up any sh*t for what's going down. She's not gonna leave because, hey, she'd have to find a visa somewhere else and whatever.” And so I turned into a petulant child, I'm not gonna lie. I was a teenager in full force. I very much gave as good as I got, but it really was not a pleasant situation to be in.

I was being overloaded with work. They were giving me extra things to do. It was a very nice company from a work-life balance, like most people left on time, but what I found myself in those situations was I was staying late to finish the work, realize that I'm the one who's been handed all this work, and just finding a quiet office to cry in in the evenings. Like that was the reality.

Erica Rooney: I tell people all the time, having a crying closet or a crying office at work is not normal. Yeah. But yet we seem to think it is. I hear about those experiences more often than I would like to admit. And so you're in this situation, you're feeling all of the misogyny, the burnt out, you're taking on all the extra work. What was that moment for you where you realized you had to get out?

Aoife O'Brien: I do remember there was a very specific time where I was pulled into a meeting with my boss and his boss, so this is the guy who's supposed to be my boss as well. And we were in a very unusual meeting room that we had never been in before, and I certainly had never been in before.

I didn't hear of people having meetings in this room. But because of the kind of company I worked in, they used to conduct market research studies and things like that. So in that room, there was a two-way mirror, and I happened to make a comment saying, “Oh, wouldn't it be so funny if...” I was gonna say his name, but I probably better not say his name. “But if this guy's on the other side of the mirror listening in to everything that we're saying.” And it just felt sketchy as hell. And I think it was the very next day, I found myself typing up my resignation letter on the train on the way into work, and I handed it straight to my boss and I had a conversation and I said, “And here's my resignation letter.”

And the very first thing he did was run down to HR. Now, to me, that's not normal. I think normally you might have a conversation and try and convince someone to stay or figure out what's going on, what can we do? To me, it's not normal to run straight down to HR and make sure that they have that paperwork and they start processing it straight away. So again, like another really strange indicator of something that was

Erica Rooney: Something wasn't right. Yeah, no. I am a chief people officer by trade, and something in the Spidey senses there doesn't quite line up. And like you say, you start to pick up on these small little things that maybe you can prove that it points to something, maybe you can't. And so I want you to talk to me about the confidence piece of this because that is a lot of what you talk about. I'm imagining that this situation you found yourself in really impacted how you felt about yourself and the confidence level that you had at work. So talk to me about that.

Aoife O'Brien: It did. And I know you mentioned something about the impact on my confidence, but actually, I think it went much deeper than that. It was beyond just confidence. It was the impact on all aspects of my life, my relationships, my health, everything. But if I look back, again, 20/20 vision, that happened about 15 years ago, and it probably took a good 10 years to properly recover from that impact.

I think if anyone has ever had a toxic boss, we don't realize just how lasting the impact is. It really knocks our confidence, and I think I took that with me into that next role that I had as well. I'm maybe not confident in speaking up or doubting my capabilities, and again, I didn't have brilliant bosses in that second company where I also had not a great experience. And I think it just didn't help to alleviate the problem, and I wasn't doing my best work.

I was completely doubting my abilities. I was like, “I'm in over my head.” I was promoted to be on the senior leadership team. This was in the second company that I mentioned, and that's when I first heard the term imposter syndrome.

I'd never heard that term before, and I was explaining to a friend of mine. I said, “Oh, and I think I was the only person who applied, or I just got lucky. I think the other person was on maternity leave, so it doesn't really count.” I told myself all these stories about why I was the one who was chosen and why it was just luck and coincidence and right place and right time, rather than because I was actually the best person for the role, which was obviously, looking back, why they chose me.

But I was telling myself something completely different, and again, making that connection with that previous role, probably because I still really doubted my abilities from having had that previous experience.

Erica Rooney: Yeah. One thing that it's bringing up fresh in my mind is when I was full-time in corporate and I had an entire HR team, I was a huge believer in if you mess something up, just say it. Let's own it because I really don't care.

We're going to make mistakes, but just say what it is, and we'll fix it and move on. And most of the people on the team were good with that. They would come, they would say, “Oh my gosh, I think I did this thing, what do I do?” And we're talking like big oopsies, like I might have overpaid someone or underpaid someone, like not small things. And I had this one woman, though, that no matter how many times I told her, if she made a mistake, she would just try to fix it herself and cover it up. And it was a protective mechanism, and I knew that.

And I kept telling her, “You're not gonna get in trouble for these things. The reason I'm having this conversation with you is because you're fixing it on your own. You're trying to. You don't know how to fix it on your own, so then there's downstream effects, and then I'm finding out about it from different leaders and different people. But if you had just come to me, I could defend you, I could stand up for you, and I could help solve the problem, right? Because I have the full picture.” And she could not get past that. I was about to say roadblock, but y'all, this is the Sticky Floors podcast. She couldn't get past that sticky floor, and ultimately, she worked her way out of the organization because of that.

And so I absolutely do believe that that stemmed from a previous experience where her boss, her leader, whatever, would yell at her or get mad at her if she made a mistake. And so you are 100% correct, Aoife, that those previous bosses impact how you work in your next place if you are not really intentional in protecting

Aoife O'Brien: Yeah. There's a few things that come up for me in relation to that. So I talk about the organizational culture hangover. So you're coming from a culture maybe where it's not safe to speak up, and therefore, you fear that you might get in trouble. But when I talk about psychological safety in the book, it's about creating that environment.

But I had to put a caveat at the end as well, saying some people don't feel safe in themselves for whatever reason, for childhood experiences that they've had, and no matter what kind of environment you create for them, they still won't feel safe to speak up. And someone commented that she was reading and nodding along, but there was something nagging in the back of her head, and she told me this as she was talking about my book, and then she said, “But then you did an about turn at the end, and you included that safety piece, which I think was really important.”

So it is important to acknowledge that sometimes no matter how safe an environment you create for someone, they still will be reluctant to speak up for whatever reason, for previous boss experiences, previous work experiences, or something deeper that happened in childhood as well.

Erica Rooney: Yeah. And I would say too, if you find yourself in those experiences, like it's not your job as the manager or the boss to fix that. You absolutely cannot. And that is where if you are the person who is sitting in there and you're noticing that you're having this repeated problem, and you are exiting organizations and it is the same problem, my favorite HR saying is, “When it becomes a pattern, it's a problem.” And so that's when you need to take a look in because we all got places we can work on. But let's tap into this book that you got, girl, because I wanna hear more about it. What sparked the idea to write it? And just tell me all about it.

Aoife O'Brien: Yeah. I think the original spark came from that position that I found myself in originally. Because of that, I was looking for answers. Google was my friend at that time, and I was looking at, what should HR be doing in this situation? What should the leadership be doing in this situation?

What should the organization be doing? And I was thinking about it very much from two perspectives. My own personal perspective, how did I get into this situation, and blaming myself, but also, like, how could organizations let this happen? Which ultimately led to my resignation. A valuable member of the team. How could they actually let that happen? And this pattern, let's say, repeated again. So I found myself in another organization that wasn't quite the same. It wasn't misogynistic. It just was not a good fit for me. And it got me thinking that work is somehow broken. So I went and, like you said, I did a master's in organizational behavior to understand what's actually driving these things and how do we make it better.

Because I think if you think about workplace interventions, we focus on fixing people. We focus on, oh, we need some resilience training. We need to teach people about imposter syndrome. We need to do this, and we need to fix the people, and it's the people's fault, without really considering what kind of environment have we actually created for the people to do their best work. And looking at things from both perspectives, not just individuals and not just the companies, but actually both at the same time because they both feed off each other.

Erica Rooney: They do. And my brain starts spinning there because essentially culture is people and people is culture, right? Like it's all blending together. And so for the woman who is maybe in one of these toxic situations and feeling all the feels, recognizing that she's getting the work burdened on her, she's not getting those types of promotions, and maybe the systemic issues are coming down from her leader, like what would you tell her to do? What advice would you give her?

Aoife O'Brien: I do talk about this in the book. So the entire first section is all about culture, and one of those chapters is just about toxic cultures and my understanding, my own experiences from my research. And for me, the easy thing is just to leave, and that's what I did. In those two situations I found myself in, I just left because I could.

I had the financial means to be able to leave, and I know that is a privileged position that I was in, and I know that right now times are tough. If people are looking for a job or you're trying to get out, it's really hard, especially, I might add, when your confidence is really knocked, having been in a toxic situation and having to try and explain why you're looking for a role without getting upset. It is really difficult. But for me, it's looking at what those options are, and if one of those options is to leave, if you find yourself that you can't change the system from within, if you've a toxic boss but that toxicity is coming from further up, then it's not a great situation to be in.

But can you move even internally? Can you have a different boss that you report into, or can you just leave that situation altogether and gather yourself a little bit? Like I say, I was in the lucky position where I had the financial means to be able to do that, but not everybody does. But I think there are situations where things can change.

If you're making suggestions or if you're saying, “Listen, I heard about this on a podcast,” or, “I heard about this,” or, “I read about this in a book,” or whatever it might be, and start making suggestions or “Oh, it's actually quite important to create a positive culture or to give people direct feedback rather than gossiping,” or trying these things. If you're trying to do things and they're not landing, I think it's a really clear sign that you're not in a place that values you and your contribution, and for me, it becomes time to leave.

Erica Rooney: Yeah. I agree with that on many levels, and I think I would just add to it that if you find yourself in those toxic situations, you do not have the means to leave right now, start planning it out. Don't just keep staying in there and tolerating it, and I think that's what so many of us do.

Aoife O'Brien: Yeah.

Erica Rooney: We are conditioned to think that if we just grind a little bit harder, if we just get through this quarter, if we just make it work, then it's gonna finally be okay. And that, in my experience, has never been the case. It's always just gotten worse. And so just start making the plan, and I think that's important. And I think reaching out to your people is very important. I've got a dear friend right now who made a leap. She had left a very secure company and a role that she'd been in for 20 years, but she's just been looking to grow, and I ran into her and I said, “How is it going?” And she was like, “It's awful. I have to get...”

Aoife O'Brien: Oh no.

Erica Rooney: And I said, “Oh my gosh,” and she started telling me all about it, and her boss literally cut her pay, and she hasn't even been there six months. And so I, myself, I'm like, “They can't do that,” which, yes they can. This is in the US, at will. You can do whatever you want. But I was like, “Okay, we gotta get you out of there.” And then it was great because we just started activating the networks, and that's what we have to do for people.

But I do wanna ask you this question. You said, “Is it a toxic boss, or does it go all the way up?” I would almost argue with you and say that if there is a toxic boss, it absolutely goes all the way up because if it is being tolerated, it is toxic.

Aoife O'Brien: Good point. That's such a good point. And I think another thing I'd love to share is I think sometimes a mindset shift helps us to get through those situations as well. Like I'm choosing to be here for X, Y, Z reason because I need to support my family, because whatever reason, insert saving up for a vacation, whatever it might be.

But if you shift that mindset from I have to be here and I hate this to I'm choosing to be here so I can save money so that I can make an exit, I'm choosing to be here, and shift that mindset, I think it really makes a difference. And again, yeah.

Erica Rooney: Yeah. That's a gold nugget because even if you were in the worst possible position, you can say, “I am choosing here to fund my life so I can find a better role.” And just that is gold. In my SNAP process, I call that the P, which is the pivot. So I love it. But you also have a framework. It's called the Thriving Talent Framework, and it's got, if I'm correct, the three pillars: culture, capability, and career. I would love for you to tell me like what do those mean in practice, and yeah, go ahead. Yeah, you got it.

Aoife O'Brien: Slight pivot.

Erica Rooney: Like, “I got it all.”

Aoife O'Brien: Slight pivot here, Erica. So I've changed the name. I used to call my framework the Happier at Work framework, and as I was in the process of writing the Thriving Talent book, I was writing about the Happier at Work framework, and it was like, it makes way more sense to change the name of this framework to Thriving Talent, so I did.

And so that framework, specifically the Happier at Work framework, which is now called the Thriving Talent framework, looks at psychological safety, and then it looks at culture, drivers, capabilities, and then leadership as the top pillar. So we've touched on this idea of safety a little bit, psychological safety. That's the foundation. We have to get that right. We've talked about cultures and creating positive cultures and getting out of a negative culture if it's required. And there's also guidance in the book as well about how to specifically address toxic culture. So if you are entering an organization and you find yourself in this toxic situation and you want to try and change it, there are ways to do that.

But the other two pillars before we get to leadership are drivers and capabilities. So drivers is about understanding what motivates individuals, like really understanding what makes people get out of bed in the morning. Like, why do people actually care? And so I go into a bit of detail around that.

And I think as individuals, it's really important to understand that because we don't ever talk about what we need at work, but I think finding a language for what makes you really frustrated at work. So let's go back to this idea of a toxic boss. Oftentimes, it's because you're being micromanaged. Someone is telling you what to do, they're telling you how to do it, they're telling you how to spend your time, which really goes against this idea

Erica Rooney: A lot of people

Aoife O'Brien: There's a lot of... I've had so many micromanaging bosses, like too many to count. But there's the other extreme as well, where we're so afraid of becoming a micromanaging boss that we just leave people to their own devices, and we don't give them expectations or any clarity about what they're supposed to be doing on a day-to-day basis or how they're spending their time.

So it's complicated to get this stuff right, but I think if we can ask people, again, by having a safe environment, ask people what's frustrating about your working environment right now, and what's blocking you from doing your best work. And if people can have those honest conversations and say, “Actually I would like a bit more autonomy,” or, “I need more guidance on this,” or, “I really like to get recognized, so if you think I did good work, mention my name in an email or in the town hall,” or whatever it might be.

And I think having language to explain to people what you really need is so important. The other pillar is capabilities, and this is an area I'm actually becoming increasingly interested in because I think in my most recent corporate role, I deliberately chose that senior leadership position, but actually it didn't suit my skill set or my capabilities at all. But I deliberately chose it from an ego perspective. I can see that now, and I...

Erica Rooney: I was gonna say, were you just climbing and it was a promotion? So yes, it's for me. Okay.

Aoife O'Brien: Totally climbing, and I was handed these two options. You can stay at that level, you can do what you love, and you can report into someone else on the leadership team, or you can be on the leadership team and doing this thing that you're not that interested in and, I'm paraphrasing here, obviously, you're not that good at.

But it's like I did the best I could, but when I work, I want to do a really fucking excellent job. And how can I actually do something that's really good? So I'm becoming increasingly interested because I think we all have these capabilities. We don't necessarily get to use them at work in what we're doing on a day-to-day basis.

I did a survey on LinkedIn. I know it's not very scientific, but 86% of people responded and said that they didn't feel like they were fulfilling their potential at work. I think there's a lot of untapped capability, and I think beyond that, as individuals, we maybe don't know how to articulate what we're really good at and what value we bring to an organization, what we do differently to other people.

And selfishly, this is something that I'm trying to figure out for myself in my business. How do I actually articulate the value that I can bring to the people that I work with that makes me different to other people? I have an inkling of what that might be, but it's finding a way to articulate that in a way that people really understand the value that they're going to get.

I know that I'm methodical. I know that I'm very analytical. I can spot problems. I can solve problems. I can make things better that are already in existence, but I'm not great at creating something from scratch, for example. I think knowing what we're really good at, and then as a leader, being able to leverage that across a team. Imagine you had people who are good at complementary things, the big picture thinkers, the detail-oriented people, and how to get the best work from both of those without them pissing each other off because they work in kind of different styles. I think finding ways to do that is so important.

Erica Rooney: I love having conversations with you because like my little HR heart is just all over the place. Like a million things I wanna dive down. But one of the things that's kinda tickling at me right now is, and you made the comment like, “I wanna do a really good f*cking job.” And I think most people do wanna do a really good job at work. Like nobody wants to come to work and be a sh*tty person at their job. We all have that ego and that pride. And I think that there are probably a lot of leaders out there, and I think it could be like this unconscious bias where we all think we're not toxic, right? It's not me, it's you.

Aoife O'Brien: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Erica Rooney: And so I almost wanna ask you, like, have you seen anything, any research about how to identify your own toxic traits? Because I know there's some things I did as a leader that absolutely bugged the heck out of people, right? And I know because I ask for direct feedback, but what are your thoughts about that?

Aoife O'Brien: I think there are loads of potential issues with this. One of the things that I talk about in the book is self-awareness. And so it's brilliant that you're asking for that direct feedback and you're taking it on board. And there, I talk about conscious leadership as well, and there's 15, I can't remember, do they call them laws or practices of conscious leadership, and being above the line versus below the line, and moving towards versus moving away, and things like that.

On the leadership specifically, I think it's a little nuanced. So I do think that what might be a toxic boss for you may be okay for me because we have slightly different approaches. And I think for this reason, it's important to understand whether someone is a good fit or a good match for a leader, for a role, for an organization, rather than just, oh, that person is a toxic leader.

And I know this from first-hand experience where I had that very laissez-faire, like just get on with the job, I'm not gonna tell you what needs to be done, which did not suit me whatsoever. He left me figuring out what I have to do. And that was in that same first company that I mentioned.

And also, I was warned against this other man. They were like, “Do not speak to him. He's...” I can't even remember why they told me, but he ended up becoming a really fantastic mentor of mine. And I think it just goes to show that it just depends on the person. Yes, there are some very specific toxic traits, and I talk about the three terrible bosses that I had in my career, and I talk about some of the toxic leadership traits that people have as well.

I think it's something like 2% are like sociopathic, psychopathic, narcissistic type of boss. And it's like, if you're working for one of them, forget it. You just gotta get out of there. And then there's, like I can't remember the exact terminology, but I think it was the aggressive, the passive-aggressive, and the passive.

So the passive is basically taking credit for your work and not giving you any sort of credit whatsoever. But you don't know that this is happening because they're not telling you directly to your face. And then the passive-aggressive is like kind of hinting and implying, but it's not actually happening.

So I think coming back to your original question, how do we know if there's an actual toxic boss and are there specific traits? Yes, there's loads of research out there, and there are some very specific things, but I also think it can be a little bit nuanced as well in that do we have a good match?

Something to add on that, I have a couple of friends who say that their boss is brilliant because their boss just leaves them on their own. And I don't know, is this again my own preference speaking? But I find that really strange, and I think your boss should be there to develop you, and you should be having regular conversations rather than being happy that your boss has left you alone.

I don't know, will that have a long-term impact on their career and their prospects for progression? Are they just happy because they've had a toxic boss in the past and they're happy just to work as they are? But I think you really have to look at those things and you have to wonder, what's good for one person may not necessarily be good for another.

Erica Rooney: Yeah, everybody's different. I did have a conversation with somebody one time, and it really stuck in my head that she told me most of these leaders at companies like this and in big positions of power, politics, this, that, and the other, they are narcissists because only narcissists would be that freaking crazy to say, “You know what I can do? Run the whole country.” And okay, I might be talking about the one I live in, but we won't go down that road. But listen, you wanna know what my toxic trait is? I can tell you because my team told me. I got a little sprinkle of ADHD in my brain, girl, and I am a big vision kind of picture, so I have shiny object

Aoife O'Brien: Oh, yeah.

Erica Rooney: “Oh, oh, something over here. Make a spreadsheet for it.” And it was hysterical when they gave me this feedback because I looked at them and I was like, “You are 100% accurate, and I will try to rein it in. I really will.” And then it was like a week later, I sent them a spreadsheet for something else, and they were like, “Erica, we already have a spreadsheet for this.” And I was like, “Sorry, just delete it. I'm sorry.” But

Aoife O'Brien: But it's good that you can have this open conversation and it's not a big deal, where you know about it, they know about it, and you can have a laugh. I think that's

Erica Rooney: their boss out on it, 'cause I knew I struggled with it, but I didn't know that I was putting it onto my team. And so it goes back to the very first point that you said, which is all about having psychological safety. And if that doesn't exist, they would not have felt comfortable to tell me that I am a spreadsheet psycho. I don't know. But that is what does it for everybody. So Aoife, this book, I've gotta dive into it. Where can everybody who's listening find it? How can they get their hands on it?

Aoife O'Brien: Best place to go is thrivingtalentbook.com. You'll find all of the links to Amazon, to Barnes & Noble, to wherever you buy your books, bookshop.org. Yeah, so thrivingtalentbook.com.

Erica Rooney: And check out the Happier at Work podcast.

Aoife O'Brien: Definitely.

Erica Rooney: I have a last question, best question for you, Aoife, and that is if you could go back in time to the woman who is in these toxic situations wondering if it's her, what is the deal? What is that piece of advice you would give her today?

Aoife O'Brien: I think exactly like you said, wondering if it's her. And I was in that situation, and I was blaming myself, and I think I took an awful lot of responsibility. That's probably, maybe not my completely toxic trait if we're talking about toxic traits, but I do tend to take responsibility, and therefore everything comes my way, and it's like, “Oh, it's my fault,” because whatever.

I think, yeah, just reassuring that things are gonna work out, and actually this is not your fault. This is how the system is built, and this is the environment that you found yourself in. It was an accident that you ended up here. It wasn't by design. You didn't choose this. It just happened to be where it was.

And I think another kind of nuance of that story was a lot of people I had worked with in London worked in that organization, and it wasn't until very recently that I made the connection because everyone's like, “Oh yeah, it's a great place to work. You must work here.” I made the connection that all of the people were men.

So some of the people I worked with in London also worked in Sydney, in Australia, but they worked in different organizations. But every single one of the people who worked in that specific organization were men, so of course they didn't see what was going on. They can't see this misogyny. They just don't notice it because it's happening to women.

Erica Rooney: 100%. And you have turned me into a liar because now I have another question, and that is, what is your toxic trait?

Aoife O'Brien: I think, so you were saying about spreadsheets. I have a little bit of that, a little bit of the, “Oh my God, I need to do this thing now. I need to try this. I need to...” Trying to spin a lot of plates all at the same time. I think I like to control things. I'm very into the detail, and I notice I'm very detail-oriented.

So I'm doing a project at the moment with my podcast editor, and the naming, I asked for the files to be named in a specific way so that we could find them much more easily, which to me makes sense. And I went into the folder, and they were just all higgledy-piggledy. There was no standard naming convention.

There was like sometimes the numbers first, and sometimes the letters are first, and yeah, that really frustrated me. Now, what I will say is, thankfully, in this day of AI, AI was able to rename all of the

Erica Rooney: I was gonna say, that's not so much of a big deal these days, but

Aoife O'Brien: Yeah, but back in the day,

Erica Rooney: by that.

Aoife O'Brien: And I had asked her to update them, and then I realized, actually, I think AI can do this, so I just got AI to do it. And of course, AI then went above and beyond and did loads of other stuff as well. But I think, yeah, being in the detail and being all over the stuff rather than the big picture, and wanting a lot of control, I think that's my place.

Erica Rooney: I'm gonna say everyone who's listening, you gotta DM me what is your toxic trait? Like your corporate toxic trait. Are you

Aoife O'Brien: Do you know what it is? And if you don't, then

Erica Rooney: know what it is? That's the good one. Oh my goodness. Aoife, thank you so much for joining us on this Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors podcast episode. I am so excited to get my hands on your book. Workplace culture, all of that, it's so near and dear to my heart, so thank you for joining us.

Aoife O'Brien: Thank you so much, Erica. A pleasure chatting with you today.

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Until next time, y'all, keep going. Keep choosing differently, and let's smash the ceilings and close the gaps.