Erica: Hey, girl. By now, you know I have HER Collective, my online community for ambitious women who are done doing it alone. HER Collective is for the women who are smart, capable, and driven, but they find themselves stuck on the sticky floors like self doubt, burnout, and waiting for permission that quite honestly never comes. Inside HER, you get more than motivation. You get real support, real strategies, and real momentum.

We work on things like clarifying what you want now and what's coming next, building confidence without burning yourself out, navigating hard conversations, career moves, and leadership moments with clarity, and surrounding yourself with women who actually get it. This isn't about hustling harder. It's about moving intentionally with the right tools and the right people in your corner. If you're ready to stop spinning, start choosing yourself, and build a career and life that actually feels aligned, I'd love to welcome you inside HER Collective. You can learn more and join us at www.joinhercollective.com.

Because honestly, girl, you were never meant to do this alone. Today's guest, Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff, has a story I know is gonna resonate with you. Despite going to a good school, working at Google, and doing all the right things, Anne-Laure felt empty. She felt as if she was living someone else's life, someone else's dream, and she decided that, nope, she wasn't gonna do that anymore. So she followed her lifelong curiosity about the mind and began a neuroscience PhD, which isn't that what we all do? Yeah, right. Hell no, we don't all do that, so I can't wait to dive in. Because when she did that, she discovered that success isn't about following a script. It's about experimenting with your life and using the results as a guide on the path toward your ever evolving goals. And to me, that is so powerful, because these goals are always changing and shifting.

So y'all, you are listening to the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors podcast, the podcast that will empower you to shatter limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities so you can live your best life. I'm Erica Rooney, and I'm on a mission to bring more women into positions of power and keep them there. I'm obsessed with all things growth and abundance, and I'm here to talk you through the tried and true secrets to get you to level up your career and your life. We talk about the hard stuff here: imposter syndrome, perfectionism, fear, and burnout. So pull up a seat, pop in an earbud, and let's dive in.

Anne-Laure, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to have you.

Anne-Laure: Thanks so much for having me. What a great introduction. I think this is the best summary of my work I've ever heard.

Erica: Well, I'd love it, but I need to hear this story, because you don't just wake up and quit Google and then go get a PhD in neuroscience. So I'm gonna need you to spell out those details.

Anne-Laure: It really all started when I realized, while I was at Google, that although I loved my work, I loved my team, I was working on exciting projects, I had a sense of emptiness. I was a little bit bored and also burned out at the same time. Bored out and burned out. And the reason why is because it really felt like someone had spoiled the movie for me. I knew already what I was supposed to do in order to be successful.

I had an exact script in my mind as to what I was supposed to work on, with whom, and when, so I could climb the ladder and be successful, keep on getting promoted, and have a career that was considered successful based on the criteria they had at Google. And because of that, I felt like I needed to explore something else. I needed to do something different.

Erica: I love that. And I love that you said you feel like somebody spoiled the movie for you, because we are all given that exact same road map to success. I don't know another person that hasn't gotten that little manual, the playbook, whatever you wanna call it, that says: go to school, get good grades, check. Try to get married and have a great relationship and 2.5 babies, check. Do this promotion, that promotion, climb the ladder, and all of those things. And you said they spoiled the movie, but here's the twist, Anne-Laure. The ending isn't what they promised. Even though they spoiled the movie ending, I do think the movie ending I was told I was gonna get wasn't the movie ending I was actually getting. Do you feel the same way?

Anne-Laure: That's really interesting, because I think even more accurately, it's not necessarily that you don't get the ending that you want. It's more that you don't feel the way you thought you would once you get to that ending. A lot of successful people picture in their mind what psychologists actually call the arrival fallacy. They feel like once they get this, once they're successful in this very precise, predefined way, then they'll be happy. And then two things can happen. Either you don't get there, and then you're disappointed. That makes sense, right? But quite often, you do get there, and still you're disappointed, because you realize that all along, your happiness was not necessarily tied to this outcome, and that getting this result was not the thing that was going to make you feel fulfilled and alive and happy.

Erica: So why do you think, and maybe this is a two part thing, why do you think we always tie our happiness to the outcome?

Anne-Laure: This gives us the illusion of control. We feel like if we can define a specific milestone, something to obtain, and then define a plan, draw a map in order to get there, then we are in control of our lives. This is a lot more reassuring than the alternative, which is to accept that the future is uncertain. Very often, we have no idea what we're doing. We're figuring it out as we go. And we have to find happiness in the chaos of everyday moments, in the chaos of change, and in that chaos of uncertainty. So this is really about control, and more accurately, the illusion of control.

Erica: Okay, I love that, because the second piece of the question I wanted to ask was: how do I let go of that control? Because when you said illusion of control, girl, I wrote it down and circled it, because if that does not show you a picture of who Erica Rooney is, trying to control all the things, I don't know what does. So how do we work on shifting that mindset?

Anne-Laure: I love that you say shifting our mindset, because this is really what it's about. It's about shifting our mindset from fearing uncertainty to approaching it with curiosity, to seeing doubt as an opportunity for growth and self discovery. And obviously, I'm a bit biased, because this is what I do for a living, I'm a scientist, but this is really about becoming the scientist of your own life. Start approaching those moments of doubt and uncertainty as an opportunity for experimentation, for asking questions, for exploration. Once you start doing this, you'll open a lot more new doors that will allow you to grow in a way that's more generative and less predictable.

Erica: Oh my goodness. And I know a lot of your work centers around inner curiosity. I would love to hear your perspective, because as kids we are so curious. I have two myself, they are six and nine, and that question of why and how will drive my sanity right out the door. But I also wanna celebrate that for them. So back to my question: why do you think our inner curiosity gets quiet as we get older, yet our outside voices get amplified?

Anne-Laure: Think about it. What are you getting paid for at work? To provide answers, right? You're paid based on your level of expertise. So the more you sound like you know what you're doing, the more you sound like you have certainty, the more likely you are to progress on that traditional career ladder that has very clear steps in terms of what you're supposed to prove you're able to accomplish in order to get onto the next rung. And so it feels like it's in our interest to express certainty rather than curiosity as we grow up as adults. It starts as early as school, where if you look at assessments and the way school works, you are being rewarded for being the one who can answer correctly, not being the kid who keeps raising their hand and asking why, why, why.

Erica: It's so timely, because on the way to carpool this morning with all the neighborhood kids in the car, they were bickering back and forth about something. I asked, why do you always need to be right? And I even said to my son, what does that give you? What does being right give you? Because the reality is the answer is just self gratification. You're just happy that you're right. And I love this mindset shift to stay curious about all the things instead of just demanding to be right, because we don't live in a black and white world, we live in a world filled with shades of gray. So I think that inner curiosity, we need to focus more on amplifying that. Wouldn't you say so?

Anne-Laure: I'm so glad you're mentioning this, because you talked about self gratification, but I also think the reason a lot of people wanna be right is because it gives them this false sense of confidence as well. When in reality, true confidence is being able to say, I actually don't know, I don't have enough data to make a decision or to have a strong opinion on this. Living in this uncertainty, in this state of unknowing, actually requires quite a bit of courage.

Erica: I would absolutely agree. Especially as someone who did climb all the way up to the C suite, I remember when I first got into those positions, I felt such pressure, whether internal or external, really probably a mixture of both, to have all of the answers. So with your expertise, what would you say to someone who's like, I really struggle with that, because I wanna show up with all of the answers, I wanna be competent and confident. What advice would you give them?

Erica: Hey there, listeners. If you have ever felt like you're stuck in a place, held back by self doubt, perfectionism, or that pesky inner critic, you're not alone. We all face those sticky floors that keep us from reaching the heights we dream of. But guess what, it's time to shatter those limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities. My book, Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, is your ultimate guide to smashing through barriers, overcoming limiting beliefs, and stepping into your full potential. This book has been endorsed by none other than the great Mel Robbins, best selling author and motivational powerhouse. It's also been featured in Success Magazine, so you know it's packed with insights that work. Inside, you'll find real life sticky floor stories, practical strategies to help you navigate your own sticky floor moments, and a whole lot of inspiration to keep you climbing. This isn't just a book, it's your road map to success, confidence, and freedom. Grab your copy of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors today at www.ericaandersonrooney.com. Whether you're in the boardroom, the classroom, or just starting out, this book is for you, because no one deserves to stay stuck, no one deserves to feel small, and you have glass ceilings to shatter. Let's do this.

Anne-Laure: You can actually be perceived as an expert without coming to the table with definitive answers. I think what people appreciate when they work with others is seeing that you've been thinking about different possibilities, different contingencies. So instead of coming to a meeting or a work conversation and saying, here's the solution, you can shift it a little and say, here's the problem we've been facing, and here are three potential solutions I've been thinking about. But I'm not claiming to have all of the necessary data to make that decision, and this is why we're having this conversation. I wanna brainstorm together. I wanna make this decision together. What do you think?

Erica: I love that, because you just changed and unlocked a perspective for me, which is you can be an expert without having all the answers. I think we often forget that, we expect if I'm the expert, I do know everything, but there's so much more power in reframing it and stating it the way you just did. And that leads me to my next question. I know with your work, you talk a lot about replacing linear success, which is what we talked about first, with circular growth. First, talk to me about what circular growth is, and then how do we go about making that shift?

Anne-Laure: The big difference between linear success and circular growth is that for linear success, you go A, then B, then C, then D, and you rely on having a clear idea of where you're going in order to grow. With circular growth, you don't necessarily know where you're going, and this is adapted from the experimental cycle in science, where you start with observation. You look around you and ask, what's the status quo, how are things working right now? Then you ask a question: how could things be different? You make a hypothesis. You test it. You collect data. And based on that data, you tweak your approach, which is going to change the status quo. Then you start observing again what the effects of those changes are. Every time you go around that cycle, you grow, but not in a way that is predictable or linear. Again, that does require the courage to sit in that uncertainty while you grow, because you don't have a clear path in front of you. But when you look back two, three, or four years later on your growth, you'll be surprised by everything you've accomplished, because there was no way you could have mapped it out in advance.

Erica: I almost believe that makes it possible to grow even more than if you were just taking linear steps from A all the way to Z. When I think about this growth, I'm seeing the circle just expand and expand over time, and it's almost like you can't predict those growth jumps you're able to make when you look at it through that lens. Do you find that people are able to lean into that growth in a different way when they're going more in that cyclical route?

Anne-Laure: If by growing you mean exploring things, accomplishing things, learning things they wouldn't have been able to imagine they were capable of in the first place, then absolutely. Because with this circular approach to growth, every time you complete a cycle, you reimagine what's possible for you based on the current data. Whereas with a linear approach, you can only do what you're capable of imagining right now. I really wanna encourage anyone listening to this to think about what they thought they were capable of maybe ten years ago versus where they are today. Chances are there are a lot of things you can do today, things you have accomplished, that would have been impossible to imagine were even in the realm of possibility for you. If you apply the circular model of growth more systematically, you'll have more of these things in your life, in your career. It's really made for leveraging your curiosity on an everyday basis, so you can look back in a few years and think, wow, there was no way I could have imagined I would be here today.

Erica: That is so powerful, and I'm a big fan of looking back at the breadcrumbs, because success leaves clues. It can be so hard to see how much you've grown and how far you've come when you're only sitting in that moment. But when you take the time to reflect back on where you were ten years ago, five years ago, I'll tell you, I wouldn't be in this seat talking to you today, having a book, having a podcast, being an entrepreneur, five years ago, that would have never entered my imagination. That's why I think it's so important to bring it back to what you said at the beginning about these ever changing goals. And I wanna offer this to anyone listening, because this has been a game changer for me. You know that quote, well, I'll believe it when I see it? Basically telling yourself you don't believe it. But I'll believe it, then I'll see it. If you can envision it in your brain, then you can make it happen. It always makes me think about the brothers who invented the airplane. People must have thought they were bananas. You wanna get into a motorized object in the air? You're crazy right now. Could you imagine not having an airplane? So you have to really get into that curiosity mindset, the inventor's mindset, to really expand on what's possible.

Anne-Laure: In the case of the airplane, it ended up working out, which is great. But another thing that's important when you start having this more experimental mindset is knowing that there's really no such thing as failure anymore, because the goal is not to get to a specific milestone anymore, the goal is to learn something new. In the case of the airplane, that worked out. But if they had tried everything, completed the experimental cycle, and it didn't work out, they would know, and they'd try something different, and we might have another way of flying that isn't what it looks like today. But there's no way to make that kind of progress if you don't give it a try. So each cycle, even if the outcome is that didn't work out, or maybe I don't like that, or I'm not sure this career path is for me, or I'm not sure I wanna work on these kinds of projects, that's fine. You learn something. There's no such thing as failure when you're collecting data you can use for your next experimental cycle.

Erica: Y'all, that is huge, all of these experimental cycles. And this leads me to something I really wanna talk about, which is that Dr. Anne-Laure has a book coming out. It's coming out in March, so get your Amazon up, get that preorder button ready to click, because you're gonna want this book to land in your hands the day it comes out. This is a book called Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World. Y'all know I'm goal obsessed, so I cannot wait to get my hands on this book. Dr. Anne-Laure, please tell me, what is this book about?

Anne-Laure: It's about a lot of the things we've talked about together today. It's really about having a more experimental mindset. I wrote this for myself first, and for everybody who's like me, like you, and I'm sure many people who are listening today, people who are highly ambitious and highly curious and feel like there might be something more out there, but who don't necessarily have the right tools to explore those different possibilities, because so far they've been relying on the more linear model of success. So I'm providing alternative tools that are based on science, but not complicated, no jargon. They're very simple tools you can apply on an everyday basis at work and in your life to experiment with where you wanna go, what you wanna do, and who you wanna become.

Erica: And y'all, here's why you need to preorder this book. When you preorder it, you get a tiny experiments workshop, a mindful productivity guide written by Anne-Laure herself (remember, she's a neuroscientist, so it's gonna be good), a behind the book exclusive video walkthrough, and nine life changing tiny experiments. So I'm challenging all of you today to go ahead and preorder the book, and we can all walk through these life changing tiny experiments together. Anne-Laure, when you wrote this book, who did you write it for?

Anne-Laure: For my younger self, really, for the person who thought she had to stay at Google in order to be successful, and for anyone today who's like her and wants to explore other possibilities. And I just wanna say, if after conducting some tiny experiments the answer is that you do wanna stay in that big corporate job, that's great too. This is all about being more experimental, being more intentional, so you know that where you wanna go is actually where you wanna go.

Erica: I love that, because for me this is like therapy, y'all, because as you know, I recently left corporate and I'm all on my own. I've got my book and all of these things, and there's a lot of unknown. I am all up in that life of uncertainty right now. But the cool thing about uncertainty is that when you are in uncertainty, you are also at the doorstep of infinite possibility. You can go anywhere, do anything, the future is yours. And Dr. Anne-Laure's book ties a lot of that in, because guess what, if all of this fails, if my book flops, if I decide I can never be an entrepreneur again, maybe I go back to corporate. Who knows, who cares. That ain't gonna happen, I'm gonna be the next Mel Robbins, but I'm just saying. What I love about her book is she really leans into getting comfortable with ambiguity, even though your brain is screaming for certainty, and that is definitely an area I struggle with. So Dr. Anne-Laure, what would you say is the number one thing someone should do when they really struggle with uncertainty? How can they get comfortable stepping into that?

Anne-Laure: The number one thing you can do when you're feeling anxious because things are a little uncertain is to stop trying to find a solution for a second, which I know can be hard for problem solvers and people who like getting things done. Just pause and put yourself in a place of observation. I like to call this self anthropology, because the idea is to become an anthropologist of your own life. Just like an anthropologist goes to a different place and studies a different culture and asks, why are they doing things the way they're doing them, or why are they worried about this, why do they talk about this thing so much, you can do the same thing with your own life, with your worries, with the things you keep thinking about, without any self judgment. Just a neutral observer looking at what's going on and asking, why are we so worried about this? When you do that, you give yourself and your brain a little breathing space, so you can figure out what you wanna do next, not based on the anxiety, but based on your curiosity.

Erica: Okay, y'all, we are replacing judgment with curiosity. That is this week's assignment. It's a big one, so you can have all week to do it. Okay, this is the one question I love to ask every single person on my show. It's what I end with, and I'm so curious for your answer. If you could go back in time to being a Googler, having all of the outward success, doing all of the things, checking all the boxes, but feeling just so defeated inside, bored out, burned out, all the things, as you said, what piece of advice would you give that version of you today?

Anne-Laure: Reach out for help. Because I thought, especially being a woman in the corporate world at the time in tech, where there weren't that many of us on my team, I just felt like I had to look like I got it all figured out. So instead of raising my hand and saying, hey, I think I'm struggling a little here, I would just try to fix everything on my own. I actually had amazing colleagues who I know would have been able to help me at the time, but I felt like it would have been a sign of weakness if I did that. So this isn't a big piece of advice, or saying that's the decision I should have made at the time, but more on an everyday basis, just asking for help. Because I think a lot of people around us do want to help us, if we let them know we need the help.

Erica: They do. That is also a sticky floor of mine, y'all, asking for help. I have to constantly lean into what I like to call my zone of discomfort, which is asking for help, because the magic about your discomfort zone is it gets smaller the more you lean into it, and your comfort zone expands. Dr. Anne-Laure, this is amazing. I cannot wait to get my hands on your book. So if people wanna work with you, if they wanna grab the book, I'm gonna put all the links in the show notes, but tell me, how can they get in touch with you?

Anne-Laure: My website is nesslabs.com. I have a newsletter that I send every week about a lot of the topics we talked about today. And to preorder the book, you need to go to tinyexperiments.org.

Erica: Yay, alright, thank you so much, it was amazing. I cannot wait to get my hands on this book. If you're listening, you're gonna have to hit me up, tell me what you think about it, tell me what tiny experiment you're choosing today. Dr. Anne-Laure, thank you so much.

Anne-Laure: Thanks so much, Erica.

Erica: Oh my gosh, what an incredible conversation that was with Dr. Anne-Laure today. Now if there's one thing I hope you take away from this episode, it's this: your path to success does not have to follow someone else's script. Y'all, life is about curiosity, it's about growth, and it is about those tiny experiments that open the door to infinite possibilities. Here's your challenge for the week: what is one tiny experiment you can try today? Maybe it's asking a new question, maybe it's exploring a different path, or simply pausing to reflect. But whatever it is, I want you to do it, you might just surprise yourself. If you loved this episode, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe, as it really does help it land in the hands of the person who needs to hear it most. And don't forget to go grab Dr. Anne-Laure's book today, it's called Tiny Experiments. Preorder that sucker so you have it in your hand the day it goes live. All the links are in the show notes. And as always, y'all, remember: the only ceilings that exist are the ones we place over ourselves. Let's smash them together.