Erica: Hey, girl. By now, you know I have Her Collective, my online community for ambitious women who are done doing it alone. Her Collective is for the women who are smart, capable, and driven, but they find themselves stuck on the sticky floors like self doubt, burnout, and waiting for permission that quite honestly never comes. Inside HER, you get more than motivation. You get real support, real strategies, and real momentum.

Erica: We work on things like clarifying what you want now and what's coming next, building confidence without burning yourself out, navigating hard conversations, career moves, and leadership moments with clarity, and surrounding yourself with women who actually get it. This isn't about hustling harder. It's about moving intentionally with the right tools and the right people in your corner. If you're ready to stop spinning, start choosing yourself, and build a career in life that actually feels aligned, I'd love to welcome you inside her collective. You can learn more and join us at www.joinhercollective.com.

Erica: Because honestly, girl, you were never meant to do this alone. If you've ever felt the pressure to have it all together, to always present the polished side of your life and career or this belief way down deep that you should be right all the time, that you should have all the answers, especially if you are a leader, then this is your invitation to just unlace those tight expectations just a little bit. Because you've heard this saying, do you wanna be happy or do you wanna be right? And while that is normally in relation to marriage or a partnership, I'm here to ask you, do you wanna be comfortable or do you wanna be creative? Do you wanna be innovative?

Erica: Do you wanna be someone who solves problems fast and isn't afraid to fail? And if you answered, yes, that's me. I wanna be creative and innovative, or I wanna solve problems and I don't wanna fail, then you need to embrace the mess. Because guess what? To be creative, innovative, and an out of the box thinker, you've sometimes gotta be wrong.

Erica: So let's get comfortable with being messy, y'all. Today, we are joined by the extraordinary Jackie Hazan, an HR aficionado who has navigated the dance of corporate ladders and glass ceilings, and she now helps others do the same. So buckle up. I'm a tell you to let your hair down a bit and prepare to explore how getting messy can actually be your ticket to growth, success, and my favorite, infinite possibility. You are listening to the Glass Ceiling and Sticky Floor podcast, the podcast that will empower you to shatter limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities so you can live your best life.

Erica: I'm Erica Rooney, and I'm on a mission to bring more women into positions of power and keep them there. I'm obsessed with all things growth and abundance, and I'm here to talk you through the tried and true secrets to get you to level up your career and your life. We talk about the hard stuff here. Imposter syndrome, perfectionism, fear, and burnout. So pull up a seat, pop in an earbud, and let's dive in.

Erica: Today, I have another HR queen on this show, and y'all know that I love having my HR friends on here because not only are we gonna cover our sticky floors, but we're gonna do it with the knowledge of what really works when it comes to climbing the ladder and shattering the ceiling. So, Jackie, I'm so pumped you're here. How are you?

Jackie: I'm doing so well. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Erica: Oh, it is gonna be an amazing conversation, but let's kick it off. Just tell me a little bit about who you are personally and professionally.

Jackie: Yeah. Personally, I'm a mom with three little kids. They're all under seven, so it's a busy household from that perspective. We've got two rescue pups that are loving and wonderful, And we spent a lot of time as a family cooking, heading up to Vermont for some skiing. So we I'd say these kids live a very, very good life.

Jackie: On a professional front, I'm an HR junkie. Started an HR profession right out of college. I like to joke I fell into it by accident. I was an English and philosophy major with no real clear career pan plans and never looked back. So I spent the first half of my career doing big company stuff at places like the BBC and NBCUniversal, where I really was able to take in the best of HR best practices around the world.

Jackie: Made the switch about halfway through my career to do small companies, scale up, start up in the private equity environment. So as a chief people officer, really shaping and owning culture of transformation, growth, all that fun stuff. Led through some pretty gnarly periods with COVID, all the social unrest that was going on before, during, and after COVID. I was really looking at, do I do this a third time in terms of the chief people officer on a rocket ship ride in private equity, or do I do something a little different? So now I run my own consulting practice.

Jackie: I spend about half of my time as a GHR adviser to companies that are going through scale, transformation, or growth. And I spend the other half of my time as an executive coach mainly to the c suite or executives that are, up and coming towards the c suite.

Erica: Amazing. I love it. And you've really done all aspects of HR, big, small, and everything in between. So I think we're gonna get into some good nitty gritty stuff here. But let's also talk about sticky floor stories, and those are those limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors that keep us stuck.

Erica: As you have navigated your HR career, were there any sticky floor moments that really stick out as you as something that was pivotal that really kind of changed your life?

Jackie: Yeah. It's a great question. So the one that really sticks out for me is when I made the transition as chief people officer, one of the things that had made me very successful in the big company environments, up and coming HR person, was taking the time to get to a correct answer before I went in front of any senior executive. So I would always come with a very polished, very professional presentation. Yes.

Jackie: That may have included one or two other pathways, but that really had one right answer, right, for the team to react to. And that was helpful. In a big company environment, that was what was expected of me. Obviously, when I hit the c suite, when you're managing a company as a member of a c suite, it's a very different expectation and bar for what performance looks like and how you even show up in that role. And I had an executive coach who was working with me in one of my CTO roles who asked me a really powerful question.

Jackie: She said, you know, this thing that you've got of not being messy in front of your peers, coming with the polished answer, what's behind that for you? Where does that come from? And at first, I was like, well, obviously, I wanna have the right answer, and I want the best solution possible for my what is this is a confusing question. Right? But it over the course of a couple of months, it's just one of those powerful questions that stuck in my mind and I kept returning back to and returning back to.

Jackie: And eventually, I did bring it back up in one of our coaching sessions. And really, what we explored is that this was a limiting behavior that ultimately was impacting my ability to get messy and get creative and get innovative with my leadership team as a member of the c suite who was running a company. This was a functional behavior that I had learned that was great when I was just advising on you know, this is what the employment law of Massachusetts says we should do in this scenario. But as an adviser to a broader corporate suite, it was actually holding back my ability to get to the best possible answer for the business.

Erica: That is very interesting because it is this behavior that for so long for you and for many of us was rewarded being right, being correct, always knowing what to do. And then you're elevated, elevated, elevated to a point where I know I struggled with the expectation of always having the right answer too. And that was very much a limiting belief for me. How did you work on moving past that to embrace maybe a messy action or an incomplete answer?

Jackie: Yeah. It was a lot it's an ongoing process, I think, is the short answer. The long answer is, for me, it started with just noticing. Noticing when I was getting that discomfort of maybe I don't have the perfect answer. What does that mean for me in this group?

Jackie: Noticing when there is discomfort or feeling around, people pushing back on the plans that I had put together. Right? So really just spending time becoming aware of my own self. How am I feeling in these situations? And then being able to connect dots on, well, what is that informing in terms of the actions that I'm taking because of those thoughts, feelings, patterns of behaviors, or beliefs that maybe weren't so obvious to me before?

Jackie: So in doing the introspection allowed me to get a really broad observational field, in a way that I hadn't before around this issue. And with new observations comes new opportunities for action and new results. Right? That for me was the meat of the work, doing that noticing so I can have bigger observations and having a broader observational field, getting those new actions and results in for the team.

Erica: When we talk about this sticky floor and, like, you showing up in the initial days and not really yet comfortable or confident in embracing the mess. Did it hold you back in any way that others kind of pulled you aside and said, like, hey. We need more from you, or how did that show up?

Jackie: Yeah. You know, I'd say there was certainly still a little bit of that reward for having the right answer. Right? Like, CEO would always be really pleased when I'd come in with this is how we're gonna do this. And what I noticed in retrospect is that I was getting that reward for HR specific things.

Jackie: Right? So very narrowly focused on my function. Where I was maybe running into more of an issue is when I was broadly learning how to engage as an executive leading a team, leading an organization, not just the HR functional leader. That's where I get a lot of, like, hey. Why can't we have a conversation about this?

Jackie: Or, you know, I'm so I'm feeling like we're missing out on some potential solutions because we're so broadly but you've already come in with the answer. What if we spent some time brainstorming about it? Right? And, initially, I hadn't quite connected the dots that I was limiting my own self and not involving my executive peers. And some things that, yes, made broad strokes look like they're an HR initiative.

Jackie: But when you think about performance culture, for example, that's a shared everybody thing. Right? And so having an executive team that wants to be a thought partner with you on that and own it with you, that's awesome. And that's how I operate now, but, initially, I didn't see it that way.

Erica: What's so interesting too is I think we often just always go with what we know and what works. Right? We're never truly thinking outside of the box. And the pace at which this world changes is so incredibly fast that sometimes by the time we've actually put the thought into action, something there's another new answer. Mhmm.

Erica: So it's really learning how to think fast and quick, but in ways you never have before, which sounds almost impossible even when I say it. How would you coach someone to really start thinking outside of the box?

Jackie: Yeah. So I think for me, in coaching somebody through this sort of transformation and growth, it's starting with this concept of find the edge that makes you uncomfortable. Locate that for yourself. Spend some time there. What are the thoughts, beliefs, values that show up for you on that edge?

Jackie: And once you've gotten a better understanding of what may be below the surface for yourself, take another look around at that edge. What you may find is that the edge has actually shifted a little bit further out as you've gotten more comfortable with where you are. And mine for data. Right? This world is constantly changing.

Jackie: Our own understanding of ourselves and how we relate to it and to each other is changing. Ourselves and how we relate to it and to each other is changing. And I think one of the things that really empowered me and that I work with executives on in terms of that thinking fast, moving fast, iterating fast, is that you have to be really comfortable with yourself, and you have to be comfortable with vulnerability in order to really think fast, to move fast effectively. And if you can do those two things, get a better understanding of yourself, get comfortable with the discomfort of vulnerability, then you're gonna be able to more effectively mine for data as the dynamics change and come up with more effective solutions for your business.

Erica: And also be really comfortable with failure. Like, that was the icky scary thing for me was that if I gave you an answer that wasn't the correct answer, that I was wrong, and wrong was failure, and failure was bad. So it's really redefining that relationship with failure that I think is so critical to being able to move forward with confidence. Right? Because we can fail all the time, but we often just stay so small.

Erica: You know? And it really keeps me in this feeling of, like, scarcity mindset of, like Yeah. Okay. I've gotta have all these answers right in case you thought. Instead of expanding and looking at all of the possibilities that are out there.

Erica: Now you said something. You said below the surface, and I love this because I have read so many mindset books and so many books on how to grow, and everything is always kinda, like, getting at the why behind the why. Mhmm. Right? So, like, your initial why was, like, you know, I can't be wrong.

Erica: I can't be messy in front of other people. And I think so many people would stop at that surface level answer of, like, well, yeah, of course. Nobody wants to be messy in front of other people, but it's digging down below that to get to the real core of the problem in order to solve that. So when you're coaching people and you're trying to get to that why behind the why, do you have any, like, really insightful questions that get people to pause and reflect?

Jackie: Yeah. We'll spend a lot of time coaching or I will spend a lot of time coaching around values and beliefs. So we'll get to that initial why. Right? What's the feeling behind that?

Jackie: What do you experience in your body as you're thinking through this complex situation or this, perhaps, presentation, whatever it was that didn't go well. Right? Usually, what people reflect is, well, it felt angry. I felt sad. I felt scared.

Jackie: Whatever the feeling was that's behind that. What's the value or the belief that's triggering that emotion for you? Right? If you were to go back in time, where have you experienced this before? What has been the feeling at play for you in those moments?

Jackie: And what's the through line? For your life there? Right? Usually, there's some form of underlying value or belief that triggers those feelings in our brain and triggers that sense of, oh my gosh. I'm in at risk.

Jackie: Or, no. I'm safe, and I could innovate, and I could collaborate. And for me, what this coach had done is gotten very simply and powerfully at a core belief that in order to be successful, I had to be right and correct in front of other people. And that came from something in my childhood. Right?

Jackie: A part of an immigrant household, where assimilation was important, where being better than was important to be above reproach. Right? And it took a little bit of excavation to get there and to understand that's just something that was no longer going to serve me professionally, and it's not an easy or quick thing to necessarily come to.

Erica: Hey there, listeners. If you have ever felt like you're stuck in a place, held back by self doubt, perfectionism, or that pesky inner critic, you're not alone. We all face those sticky floors that keep us from reaching the heights we dream of. But guess what? It's time to shatter those limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities.

Erica: My book, Glass ceilings and sticky floors, is your ultimate guide to smashing through barriers, overcoming limiting beliefs, and stepping into your full potential. This book has been endorsed by none other than the great Mel Robbins, best selling author and motivational powerhouse. It's also been featured in Success Magazine, so you know it's packed with insights that work. Inside, you'll find real life sticky floor stories, practical strategies to help you navigate your own sticky floor moments, and a whole lot of inspiration to keep you climbing. This isn't just a book.

Erica: It's your roadmap to success, confidence, and freedom. Grab your copy of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors today at www.ericaandersonrooney.com. Whether you're in the boardroom, the classroom, or just starting out, this book is for you because no one, and I mean no one, deserves to stay stuck, no one deserves to feel small, and you have glass ceilings to shatter. Let's do this. Yeah.

Erica: I think a lot of people think that by digging deeper, wasting time. Right? Like, because this isn't helping me solve whatever x problem I'm having in corporate America. And it's like, no. No.

Erica: No. If we actually dig deep and we come to the root of this problem and you know, once you get there and you just understand, like, oh, it's almost like a little light bulb goes off. Mhmm. Oh, that's why I react this way. And then all of a sudden, you're moving these beliefs and patterns that were existing in your unconscious mind to the forefront, which allows you to make a different choice.

Erica: And if you don't excavate those thoughts and pull them out, right, especially, like, hey. Being successful means I have to be right. Mhmm. Now whenever that belief shows up again, you can say, okay. Wait a second.

Erica: I know why I'm doing this. And is that true? And then you can really start to

Jackie: change those patterns that, you know, you've probably spent a lifetime putting together.

Erica: Mhmm. Patterns that, you know, you've probably spent a lifetime putting together.

Jackie: Mhmm. It's so true. I mean, fundamentally, by doing the excavation work, you get to be at choice, and that's really powerful. Right? We live in a world that is highly subjective in which our brain is constantly processing information and executing a thousand mental shortcuts a minute to tell us fundamentally, are we safe, or are we at risk?

Jackie: And if we're at risk or a threat, it puts us in this, what I call below the line way of being, where, you know, we feel like we have to be right. We feel like we can't put somebody in to collaborate with us versus if we can be above the line as leaders having excavated these thoughts that are hard and subjective in many ways, then that's where the collaboration and the innovation and that positive leadership comes in. So, fundamentally, doing the work to excavate, like, now it's really fast for me. I noticed something that's triggering me back into the state of having to be right, and it usually starts with a feeling or a sensation somewhere in my body. As soon as I notice that now, it's like a quick light bulb of, oh, yeah.

Jackie: This thing. And I can put it to the side. I can acknowledge it. I can do whatever I need to do to move past it quickly. And then I'm running.

Jackie: Right? I'm running in a new and different way.

Erica: I love this because I have what I call the snap method, which is all about stop, name, ask and answer some questions, and then pivot your thoughts. But the stop stands for noticing the physical sensations in your body Beautiful. Because that is your body's way of trying to tell you and get your attention. Like, whether that is a racing heart or sweaty palms or nervous energy, whatever it is, like, that is your body's signal. And it's so easy for us to just brush past that and go straight into our repeated patterns.

Erica: Do you have any tips or tricks to get people to hone in on some of those physical feelings?

Jackie: Yeah. So a lot of times in coaching sessions, the first tell that somebody's maybe experiencing a feeling in their body over something is actually their body language. Right? So somebody might get more closed. They may look away from me on the screen, or maybe they start fidgeting with something.

Jackie: There's a necklace or shirt, whatever. I have one client who actually, like, physically gets in her shirt sometimes, so she's really uncomfortable. Right? So there are tells, some of which are more obvious or less obvious. So as a coach, I'll just ask the question.

Jackie: Hey. I'm noticing. What might be going on for you in this moment? What might you be feeling that isn't quite at the surface for you? And we'll send some spend some time exploring.

Jackie: My clients, you know, they know now, and at first, it feels a little uncomfortable when somebody's asking you about how you're feeling who's not you know, I'm not a therapist. I'm not here to unpack, in that way, your life. Right? I am here to help you become more objective about what you're experiencing and feeling below the surface so that you can be a choice. And as I work with clients, usually what happens is it takes a little while, right, at first to be able to even begin to talk about, locate, think about.

Jackie: But as we get practiced at acknowledging that we're experiencing this in the moment, right, it becomes much safer and much easier and much faster much faster to pull out those feelings, get curious about them, and move on from them if they don't serve us.

Erica: I love this. And I wanna go back to this need to be right because I too struggle with I should have all the answers. That was a big limiting belief of mine when I became an executive that, like, because I'm in this position, I should know everything. Do you see that in your work with other people who are at really any level of this beholden to the shoulds.

Jackie: Mhmm. I see it all the time. And it's normal. Right? There is safety in being right.

Jackie: There's a lot of reward early career for many, many professions in being right, and there's risk potentially of being wrong personally and for the business. There's this concept of chief question master that I like to introduce, especially for my executive first time executives, that actually, what might be possible if your role was not to be right? What might be possible if your role was to be the chief question master for your organization? And what I mean by that is somebody who can show up curiously with openness, who is released from the requirement to be right. What might be possible in that world?

Jackie: And usually there's almost this, like, big sigh of release. People release tension in their shoulders as they're imagining this possible world. And we'll spend a lot of time working through what might exist today that you could pull from that and begin to introduce in your work, and then that way begin to release yourself from the pressure of being right. What does that mean for the team, for you? And, usually, it leads to a much more innovative space, right, which is better for the business, better for the for the executive.

Erica: I was gonna say when you asked that question, what might be possible, I was like, oh my god. Anything. Right? Like, anything. The world.

Erica: Right? Yeah. It created this feeling of abundance almost versus and we've already mentioned the word scarcity in this podcast today, but it really becomes such a in a feeling of abundance and like, okay. Possibilities. And I'm all about infinite possibilities because when you remove these expectations that you've placed on yourself and that's what I love to tell people because there's no line item in your job description that says must always be right, must always be right answer.

Erica: Like, that's not a qualification here. A lot of leaders expect you to be wrong at some point.

Jackie: Mhmm.

Erica: So do you have any tips or strategies or things that you'd teach people to either think through or say to give them the confidence to show up wrong?

Jackie: Great question. So one exercise that I like to do is the hardest thing exercise. So we'll take a scenario. Right? I am really struggling with how I need to show up in this executive meeting.

Jackie: I don't feel safe about it. Right? Okay. What's the hardest thing about that? And they'll go through, and, usually, it'll be very surface level, whatever the whatever the example might be.

Jackie: Then I'll ask it again, and I'll incorporate their answer. What's the hardest thing about? So what's the hardest thing about presenting in this meeting and potentially being wrong? We'll go through and they'll answer again. They'll ask it third time.

Jackie: What's the hardest thing about showing up in this meeting potentially being wrong and the negative feelings that might surface for you? And, usually, in that third answer, we get down to the real nut of the feeling belief value that is triggering this righting reflex and making it impossible, seeming seemingly impossible, right, to move beyond the need to be right. And it's in that really deep understanding that we begin to open up pathways for the individual to let go and remove the expectations on themselves. Because once we're there, what we can talk about, well, what's the worst that might happen if that if that became true in this meeting? Would you be fired?

Jackie: Would you be ridiculed? Would you know, let's run through the things that could happen. And, usually, as the executive is running through that list, what we end on is, actually, this isn't that bad. I'm not really as at risk as I thought I was. I might be able to experiment with this.

Jackie: And then we'll move into, well, how might you experiment in a way that feels safe? And that'll be part of the homework. Right? There's always work between sessions that the individual has to own and drive, and it's up to them what they choose to do or not to do. I'm not I'm not a not a teacher assigning work per se, but, the excavation opportunity is endless, once we begin to remove that need to be right.

Jackie: Mhmm. Cash.

Erica: I heard the quote, you know, do you wanna be happy, or do you wanna be right? And, usually, people are talking about that in your marriage, right, or in your partnership with your significant other, but I do find that does also carry over into the workplace because especially as you climb the corporate ladder, you have more and more people who are very strong in their beliefs and their convictions, whatever those may be, and you have to be able to stand up to some of those people who also have the same need to be right as you and might be a little more stubborn.

Jackie: Yeah.

Erica: So sometimes hold on to that. Sometimes be flexible in it. Willing to explore those different avenues. Huge. Huge, especially as you climb the ladder.

Erica: One thing I do wanna kinda dive into a little bit is I think women probably struggle with this a lot because we are the minority the higher up the ladder we go, and they struggle with being able to be wrong almost because they feel like they are showing up for the entire gender. Right? I cannot be wrong at this. I'm the only woman on the c suite, or I can't be wrong. I'm the only female here.

Erica: Is that something that you have seen in your work, or what are your thoughts on that?

Jackie: Yeah. I think anytime you layer on a piece of diverse identity, whether it's gender or whether it's race, orientation, etcetera, there's just a little more pressure and a little bit less of a feeling of safety and experimenting. And usually when I'm either for myself or working with others through those scenarios, it's being thoughtful about how can you test for safety and how can you be thoughtful about expanding your boundaries of where safe experimentation is. And what I mean by that is so, you know, the first time I showed up in the c Suite, I was the only woman in the C Suite. I'm often the only woman in the boardroom, when I'm either presenting to boards or on some of the boards that I serve.

Jackie: And I recognize that even as a white woman, right, I am in some ways advantage relative to those who, have different representations of diversity. And for me, what's been really effective as an individual going through this, and then I talked a little bit about the coaching work, is getting thoughtful about those bridges to safety. So identifying folks in the room that I may be one on one would feel more comfortable being vulnerable and experimenting with. And the way that I kind of felt that out would be to have some initial conversations. Like, hey.

Jackie: This is where I am. This is what I'm working on. This is how I could use your help. Tell me a little bit about how you think about that. Right?

Jackie: And in a very small way, building those one on one connections so that I built my bubble in the room to get messy with and practiced over time until it became really second nature. And with my coaching clients, it's a it's a little bit of a similar process, except I often will talk to them about, well, what stories are you holding on to about the other people that make you believe they're not there to help and support you even if they don't look like you, feel like you, and there's all this pressure to be right as the first woman in the room. And as we begin to excavate the stories, we can start to separate out the facts at play. Right? Has this person factually done anything not to support you?

Jackie: Or maybe even there are facts that show that they are supporting you and you're missing it because of the story you're telling yourself, that you're the only woman nobody else could possibly be as invested in your success or whatever the story might be. And in that way, beginning to create that sense of safety of, well, maybe I can keep mining for facts versus letting the subjective and the story come in and control the actions that I'm taking.

Erica: That's a powerful one and often one that is overlooked is this what story are you telling yourself about these other people. And you we all make assumptions about people based off of very surface level interactions. And I think that is a great question for anyone who's in any tough situation, not even just about being right, but about any tough situation. So thank you for that one. That's a gold nugget.

Erica: Jackie, this is my final question that I ask every single person on my podcast, and it is, what is this one piece of advice that you would go back and tell the Jackie who is just now starting her c level position and is just holding on with a death grip to that need to be free. What piece of advice would you give her?

Jackie: Have fun and get messy. Don't be afraid of the mess. That's where the learning and the growth is.

Erica: Super simple, but also very clear. I love it. Now, Jackie, if people want to work with you either as a coach or have you come into their organization, how can they find you? What's the best way to connect?

Jackie: Yeah. I'm on LinkedIn. That's a great way to reach me. My company is Hazan Consulting. We do have a website.

Jackie: It's hazan-consulting.com. Both great places to catch me, and, always happy to chat. So feel free to reach out.

Erica: Yes. And I'm gonna link all those great links in the show notes so that you guys can get on her mailing list, connect with her, and just follow what she's doing because she's got a lot of great stuff out there. Jackie, thank you so much for your time today for coming on the podcast. This was an amazing conversation.

Jackie: Thank you so much, Erica.

Erica: Wow. A huge thank you to Jackie who I hope has really opened your eyes to the sticky floor of needing to be right and to have all of the answers. Because, really, do we ever have all the answers? I sure as hell do not. But Jackie has shown us that it's okay to not have them all, that embracing the mess means stepping into this space of creativity and innovation so that you can flourish.

Erica: So the next time you find yourself facing that sticky floor, I want you to remember Jackie's words, have fun and get messy. But until next time, stop putting ceilings on what is possible and start smashing through them. I'll see you next time.