Erica Rooney: Welcome to Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, the podcast where we stop playing small, start calling things out, and actually do something about it. I'm your host, Erica Rooney, executive coach, speaker, and a little bit of a movement maker, and I'm on a mission to get more women into positions of power and keep them there.

Because let's be honest, we've been told to lean in, but not too far, to speak up, but not too loudly, to be ambitious, but somehow still likable, and y'all, we're done doing that. This is the space where we break it all down, the sticky floors, the ceilings, and the gaps that are shaping who gets ahead, especially in this next era of AI and leadership.

Some of it's mindset, some of it's burnout, and some of it is the system working exactly as it was designed. Either way, we're not staying stuck in it. Each episode is your nudge to move. One decision, one shift, one bold step forward. No overhauls, y'all. No waiting until you feel ready, just real momentum. So if you're ready to think bigger, move smarter, and build power on your own terms, you're in the right place.

Siri Swahari: Let's smash the ceilings and close the gaps. What does it actually take to climb to vice president and sector leader leading infrastructure and operations for global technology operations inside one of the world's largest IT and business consulting firms? This woman leads PMSO in global technology operations across government, healthcare, financial services, and manufacturing, and y'all, she still finds the time to build a community for women because she looked around and realized that the room needed more of us in it.

Erica Rooney: Now, today's guest has done all of that. She is a two-decade technology executive, a vice president at CGI, the founder of Women Executive Circle, and one of the most grounded and purposeful leaders that I have had the chance to sit down with. She has built her career at the intersection of complex systems and human leadership, and her message is one that every woman navigating corporate America right now needs to hear.

Leadership, y'all, is not just about scaling systems, it is about scaling trust, clarity, and purpose. Siri Swahari, the real OG Siri. Welcome to the Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors podcast. You remembered. Girl, I had to put that in there. That's how it's in my phone. I have you as the real OG. Thank you for saving it like that, and thank you for endorsing that.

Siri Swahari: I appreciate it. I mean, I feel like if you don't have it trademarked already, you probably should. More than one are saying, but to be honest, Siri is such a common name growing up, so I'm pretty sure there are a lot of OG Siris out there. But I'm not your typical iPhone Apple Siri. No, we're not the iPhone Siri, no.

Erica Rooney: Okay. So I've only known this Siri, right? When we met, you were already very well established. We met in a mutual network, Chief, is where we originally met. And so I don't know the Siri before all of this. And I know there is a story there. So I would love to hear, who was that Siri, 20-plus years ago, that was just stepping into her career? Who was she? What was she like? What did she think about the world?

Siri Swahari: I was too naive. But I think I was also curious. I think that helped in transforming a curious Siri into the Siri that you see right now, but I'm still learning. Every single day I learn something new. Every single day I look at things in a different perspective because of wonderful leaders like you that surround me.

In a way, there is that saying, right? You are who you surround yourself with. And I don't exactly know when the transition happened, but I am someone who grew up in India, an immigrant who came to the land of dreams, learning how to approach, how to settle down, how to call this place my new home.

Erica Rooney: How old were you when you moved here?

Siri Swahari: 23.

Erica Rooney: Okay. Wow.

Siri Swahari: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, at that time, I never thought I would be here. At this point in time, I am here more than I was in India, which I think I just dated myself. But, to be honest, when I came to the US, I thought it was going to be a short-term stint. Explore the new world. I was married, newly married. Wanted to explore, travel, visit, and see if I could make a career. We had to go through the whole process of making sure I got an employment visa, so until that happened, I'm not someone who can sit idle. I needed something to be active, and I took part in a few organizations in Colorado Springs.

Beautiful city, if you've ever visited. You should, if you haven't. At the Pikes Peak Library District out there, and then there was a nonprofit that was building a website. So I said, "I have plenty of free time while I wait for my employment visa, so let me get started." And I think that was my first foray into working in the US.

Erica Rooney: Both the physical, manual work, supporting a library, sorting, resorting, arranging books, it's not as simple as you think it is.

Siri Swahari: As well as working in technology, and it was totally new technology. I used to come from an Oracle background. And when I said I would volunteer at this nonprofit, it was a totally new world, the website development. I was not exposed to that kind of world before, but it was also fun and challenging because I got to learn something new, and I was making a difference. That always made me happy. I think no matter what changes happen, one thing that has been universal over the decades is I always love doing something for the community, or I always love giving back.

And I feel that gives me more of a sense of satisfaction than the monthly paycheck. Not that I'm saying I don't want a paycheck.

Erica Rooney: We need those paychecks.

Siri Swahari: We need those, but the fulfillment, the satisfaction. Even at work, I am a mentor for several leaders, even at my company. And the small one-on-one conversations, the feedback I receive where I sponsor someone and I see them shine and thrive and grow in their careers, that gives me a lot more satisfaction than the VP title or the promotions I've received in the past.

Erica Rooney: But if my boss is listening, I am all in. We want that VP title. We want more.

Siri Swahari: Yeah. Let's keep climbing. We're going.

Erica Rooney: Oh my gosh, I'm always ready for more. I love a shameless plug. More challenges and more growth. And self-promotion. That's what we're here for on this podcast, is we do self-promotion. We do visibility work. If we don't put it out there, it doesn't happen. And that doesn't come easy, especially, I don't know how it is growing up here, but I'm speaking from an immigrant background.

Siri Swahari: And especially in India, we are raised to be extremely humble. I was the topper in the class, but I should not be saying in front of my friends and family that I was the topper. That was treated as a negative. It had a little bit of negative touch to it, "Oh, she's bragging" kind of mindset.

So we were groomed and told, "Don't announce your achievements." And it took me a lot of unlearning when I started my career, when I realized that we should be advocating for ourselves. We should be vocal. We should be visible. We cannot be, my son would love this acronym, NPCs, non-playing characters, in their own game shows. We can't be NPCs when we are already delivering value. If that is a personal choice, that's good, but if it is a conscious choice you are making because you are raised in a certain way or taught in a certain way, and you are still expecting growth or progress, then that is totally counterintuitive.

And over the years, even in the initial stages when somebody was introducing me as a VP or listing all the accomplishments, I used to feel very awkward, very shy, and it took me a few minutes to realize, why am I feeling uncomfortable? They are not lying. These are exactly what I achieved. I turned around so many things. Even without a title, I made a lot of difference, which resulted in the title in the first place. So it was mindset retraining. I don't know if you've heard any of Eileen Gu's interviews these days.

Erica Rooney: Yes. I'm all about the mindset, because you have to recognize that if you're putting all that negativity out there and you always think the worst is going to happen, that literally is what will scientifically happen. You have the reticular activating system in your brain. It acts like a hairnet. It sits right over there, and it's one of those things where if you are thinking about a certain car, and you go to the Toyota dealership, and you pick out, I don't know, a purple Grand Highlander, probably not many of those around, but then you start saying, "Oh my gosh, I like that purple Highlander," and then you start driving around and you see it everywhere. Your brain pulls out those commonalities. So yes, mindset training is so big. What was sticking out for you in those interviews that was on your mind?

Siri Swahari: That I should lead by example. Even for the Women Applying AI event, after the event, a few of us were chatting, and you won't believe the number of Brown women who came up and were asking, "How are you comfortable speaking? How are you comfortable engaging in a public environment?" And that made me realize I need to show up more to give that confidence and visibility.

I mean, this is also like those Barbie dolls. Representation matters, and there are so many qualified leaders out there, but they are all siloed or grew up in a certain way or exposed to a certain way. And that change happened when I realized this is not self-boasting. This is not bragging. Me putting myself out there, speaking and being visible, it still makes me uncomfortable. Who likes to be on the spotlight all the time, unless you're a diva?

The thing is, this is common. This is universal, human nature. Nobody wants to mess up in front of a public audience. And the more you put yourself out there, the probability increases. So unless you are trained and it becomes your bread and butter, every time you show up publicly, even in my all-hands, we have around 200 members showing up, it is possible for me to say something wrong because we are all human. But what I realized is that me showing up and speaking, engaging, providing visibility, is making a difference to others. And it gives me joy. If I can add value, create value, or contribute to the community, that is maybe my personal purpose. However we label it, it gives me joy, so I am selfish like that. Giving back to the world is the selfish component that drives me to do more.

Erica Rooney: I love this. We've had a lot of discussion about visibility. It also makes me think about imposter syndrome, because I hear from so many people, "I could never be in the C-suite," or, "I couldn't be a leader. I couldn't ask for that." There's just so much limitation and holding back. So I'd love to ask, did you feel any of that in your career? If you did, what did it look like? And are you still seeing that in some of the women you're mentoring?

Siri Swahari: It's so funny you bring this up, because on my drive to your studio, I was listening to Mel Robbins' podcast on imposter syndrome. I forgot the guest's name, I think she was someone from Taiwan. But they were talking about that exact topic. And I learned that when imposter syndrome was discovered, in the 1970s or 1980s, they used to call it imposter phenomenon, something supposed to be temporary. The way the syndrome is coined now has a negative connotation attached to it, as if we are doing something wrong. But what I realized is if you are facing imposter syndrome, that means you are putting yourself into something new which you haven't done before, and there is no single human being born a CEO.

Erica Rooney: Yeah.

Siri Swahari: You might be born rich, but are you born a leader? You are trained, you learn, you practice. Provided you have the circumstances to thrive as a leader, the mindset and the growth mindset, you will be a leader. And any new role, any new avenue you explore that you haven't in the past, is going to make people wary. Basic human nature.

A few years ago I did a rotation in my career where I went from a technology background to a management background, just to learn that side of the process, and it hit me hard, because it was a totally new arena. Never been in the business side of the world. But what I realized is exposing myself and being uncomfortable made me learn. And it helped that particular group too, because now they had someone with a technical background who could look at a problem from both a technical lens and a management lens and provide an optimal solution rather than each group working in its own silo.

And that's when I realized it's so good to be uncomfortable, because it means you are learning something new. So if anyone is fearing imposter syndrome, my wish is that the whole world feels it, experiences that discomfort, because it only means you are on the path of growth.

Erica Rooney: Go and slay the world. I love this, because I had a very similar experience where I used to dread that feeling, and after I started doing the mindset work and reading the books, I remember having a visceral feeling of imposter syndrome, and the second I was able to exhale and take a breath, I was like, "Oh, I know what this feeling is." This connects to my SNAP method, where you stop and you notice, why am I feeling panicky or nervous or anxious and excited? Whatever it is. And when you name what that sticky floor is, then you can start to do the deep work. Even now, years later, I'll still feel that feeling sometimes.

Siri Swahari: Yep. But instead of that panic, "Oh my God, I gotta get out of here, what did I sign myself up for," it's, "Okay, we're about to do this, I don't know what it is, but buckle up." It's a much more exciting way to look at it. And that's one way to get rid of sticky floors. It's basic human nature. The person Mel Robbins was interviewing, who was talking about embracing growth, she wrote that she was freaking out to be on that podcast, and was taking energy drinks because she was feeling the imposter syndrome. Look at the irony of that, but also the humanity. It doesn't matter if you're going on a stage. There's an article I read where Oprah shared a list of people, Obama, Meryl Streep, and someone else, saying, "Every single person came and asked me this." Guess what? They were asking, did I do okay? Was I good? Did it land?

Erica Rooney: Right. These are public figures known for their oratory skills, and they went to Oprah asking that, which cements the fact that we are all human. Everyone feels it. If you're feeling it, you're doing the right thing. Keep on growing. It almost makes me think that if you have leaders who never feel that, or say, "I've never had that thing," it just doesn't quite make them as human. One of the things you talk about a lot is trust, and I think when you exhibit those vulnerabilities, you bring about trust. But you also believe in clarity, and I'd love to hear, where did you pick up these leadership philosophies, and why are they so important to you? Are there any I missed?

Siri Swahari: I don't know where I picked it up, or I should give credit to my school, my parents. I think these were instilled in me without me knowing I was being trained. The core values people teach, they're there for a reason. Those should be the North Star. And to be honest, I never realized I was learning to be a leader until, there are a few incidents, and when you asked this question I was thinking back. A couple of things happened when I was in school. I was the class monitor, and I studied in a strict Catholic school where we had a uniform code, blue and white, everything to the notch.

There was one day where we didn't have school, but they asked us to show up for extra review before exams, and they didn't say it was a day off. We had two monitors per class, supposed to go ask the principal. We were on the way, and someone said, "It's a holiday, so you don't have to wear uniform." So that's what I conveyed to my class of 60 members, and the next day, 50% of us wore uniforms and 50% came in casual clothes, which in a Catholic school is a big deal, even on a holiday. I knew it was a big deal on a regular day, but not on a Sunday.

The principal was super mad, and gave a punishment, everyone had to write 100 times, "I will come to school in uniform, I will not miss the rules." Remember, this was Sunday, and from Monday we had finals, and we were there for final review. I felt very bad because I conveyed that message, even though I got it from the other monitor. It doesn't matter, I should have gone to the principal directly. My miss. I was the one who conveyed it. So I went to the principal and said, "I will do it for all 60 members. That's my fault. I will write 60 times 100, the punishment. I will take it on. Don't let the class do it, it's my fault." At the time, I didn't know it was leadership. I thought I was doing the right thing.

Erica Rooney: Did you write all the words?

Siri Swahari: They said yes, go ahead. The principal was happy that I offered, and let it go, said the class didn't have to do it. It was a communication gap. Mrs. Jones, she was awesome. But what I didn't realize is she saw the leadership quality in me that I didn't. When I was graduating, she called my dad and said she needs to go for IAS, a different path from technology and medicine, a growth path where you become an officer, similar to a mayor, in India we call it a collector. She said, "Siri has these qualities, I don't think she should be doing medicine or engineering, I think she should be taking on that path." Until she said that, I never realized it. So if you ask me when I developed it, I don't know. It happened organically based on the circumstances I grew up in. My mom was a naval officer, a very strict one, so I think that played a role. I had good role models. My grandmother, who said no to stupid cultural norms and raised two kids on her own through faith, was a child bride who lost her husband when she went to deliver my mom, to her mom. At that time, life is done for widows, they don't have any growth, and she did not have enough education. She defied all odds. I think she is the one who broke the glass ceiling in my household first, if I look back. She said, "I'm not going to be dependent on anyone. My kids are not going to depend on anyone." In one year she completed three years' worth of studies, got her diploma, got a job, took care of two kids, and raised them into successful careers, and here we are.

Erica Rooney: That's hard in today's world, with all the technology and everything else we have. But you know what else I think? At least for me, when you have examples of bad leadership, you also know what kind of leader you don't want to be. And sometimes that makes you go overboard in other areas, but I also think that's a big thing. So if you've ever had your trust betrayed, you're like, "I'm never doing that." If you've ever been fired in a disgraceful manner, or left feeling like trash, you'd never do that again. So I think those are also great ways, if you're new in leadership or trying to figure out what's important to you, to think about what you don't want to be.

Siri Swahari: Good leaders are good teachers. Bad leaders are good teachers too. I always say that. I had my version of bad leaders where I felt like, "Oh my God, people don't matter." And I should never let anyone experience that feeling, which is why I think she's a good teacher.

Erica Rooney: Yeah, I had someone who didn't attribute my work to me, and it impacted me greatly. So that was my thing from here on out, if anyone else touched something, I always wanted to make sure that person got the credit. So if I ever see an email and somebody's left off, I'm always like, "Let's make sure we're giving this person their credit." I think that was one of my big lessons and takeaways.

Siri Swahari: I think that's what all of us should learn as part of growing up, as part of maturity, as part of being a decent human being.

Erica Rooney: Amen. Absolutely. All right, I want to talk about WEC. We can't have a podcast if we don't talk about WEC, y'all. This is the Women Executive Circle, and it started right here in Raleigh with Siri and a very small group of people. It has blown up. How many states are we in now?

Siri Swahari: 12.

Erica Rooney: 12 different states.

Siri Swahari: Three more to go live.

Erica Rooney: Every time I turn around, Siri's like, "Y'all, we got another state going live," and I'm like, "Good Lord, whiplash over here." Let's talk about what WEC is, and why did you start it when you're already so busy?

Siri Swahari: I will, but I just want to add one more shameless plug. We're ready to go international, speaking with UK and Canada, and we'll see how things go.

Erica Rooney: Ooh, Canada.

Siri Swahari: But anyhow, WEC, we pronounce it as WEC for a reason, because we want to acknowledge, we want to see, we want to make sure everybody is visible, and that's how the framework developed. You are part of the story from almost the beginning. It started organically. I never thought of going beyond NC, beyond Raleigh, and now into international waters. But it also speaks volumes to the need behind why this came about and why it's growing.

Going back into history, it all started when a few of us who were part of Chief met for a Christmas party and enjoyed the camaraderie. As much as I love seeing others on virtual calls, those Zoom squares, I'm grateful technology has progressed enough that I can see my family and my team on those Zoom squares.

Erica Rooney: You and I could have done this podcast on a Zoom square.

Siri Swahari: Sure could have. But I chose to show up here, because it feels more human, more authentic. We loved the Christmas party meetup, and said, "Can we do it again?" And we were told, unless it's a minimum of 100 folks, nobody's going to invest the time and energy. This is one more leadership quality I never realized was a leadership quality. If there's a problem I can solve, I never wait for someone else to solve it. I always raise my hand, or start solving the problem, irrespective of title or role. So I reached out to a few friends and said, "Do you want to meet for lunch, have a proper conversation?" That's how it got started. In fact, it used to be called Lunch Group. Pretty soon, the first few sessions were like a typical networking group.

Most of us, whether extrovert or introvert, when meeting a large group of new members, have that little bit of resistance to break, and you probably have a decent conversation with one or two people near you, and that's it. You don't get to know everyone who attended. That was something I noticed, and something else felt missing. So I don't know if you've heard of the rose, bud, thorn framework. I think it's an icebreaker I came across at a party several years ago, and I use it personally for my own staff meetings, where we share what's going on, kids' graduations, or sometimes sad things, somebody breaking their leg, or a flood in their kitchen. It helps us relate to others when we know the human side of it. I keep hearing myself say human, human, human. But that is what really matters to me. It's the people. For me, it's always the people. What we bring to the table, not the titles.

Erica Rooney: Well, real quick, what does rose, bud, and thorn mean?

Siri Swahari: Before I give the exact definition, I want to give its counterparts, since I'm a nerd at heart, so I changed it to fit our WEC framework. Rose represents the W in WEC, as wins. What's going well in your life, personal or professional. Bud is what's evolving, representing the E in WEC. And thorns are problems, challenges, tying to the C in the WEC framework.

Erica Rooney: So every meetup, we go around the table, make sure we introduce, and I know we're fortunate to have you at the table, part of this WEC group, and also part of the board of advisors for WEC.

Siri Swahari: Yep. What we do is make sure every single person is heard, so we do this mandatory introduction. At this point most of us know each other, but every meetup we get a new member or two, so it helps reestablish that being seen across the board, the concept behind WEC. We do this mandatory WEC framework where we share what's going on. And believe me, I have a loving family, amazing friends. But when I sometimes go and share my problems and the challenges I face...

Erica Rooney: I know where you're going, girl. Sometimes I feel like, "Are you even listening to me?"

Siri Swahari: No, I'm on a different planet. They're being genuine, because it takes one to know one. They don't know what it takes taking care of children, traveling across the world at Christmastime for three weeks mandated, being the only woman at the table. Those glass ceilings you break, and then realize there are glass cliffs there too. You always have to have that strong facade. You cannot be vulnerable. Even though I'm lucky to have a really good cultural environment at my work, I've been in places where I didn't get that. I know what it takes, how much of a toll it takes. Just like a basic therapy session, even if the therapist doesn't give you an answer, sometimes saying it out loud provides a lot of relief. That's what we created together. A safe space where you can take the mask off, be your true self, share what's going on.

And another magic, you must have observed it too, sometimes when strong leaders start sharing their problems, putting their thoughts into words and saying it out loud, I notice a gleam in their eye where they find a solution themselves. They don't need anyone suggesting what they need to do. They find it themselves. It gives them the space, because we women are known for not prioritizing ourselves. Even for showing up to WEC meetings, if it's more than 30 minutes, we wouldn't go. We don't think we're high on the priority list. If it's a kid's appointment, two hours, nothing. We'll do anything it takes. If it's a deliverable at work...

Erica Rooney: I'm up all night.

Siri Swahari: Yep, you'll bend backwards. But making time for yourself, where you can be your true self and also experience the joy of showing up for your peers, is priceless. I can't quantify it. You need to experience it to feel it. That's the beauty we created with WEC, and honestly, you were one of the reasons for the pivotal day we decided to go beyond NC.

Erica Rooney: For the audience, we were meeting in August at our regular happy hour, going through the table and everyone's story. And for the first time ever hosting these sessions, I saw a leader tear up, and I know it's hard at times.

Siri Swahari: Yeah, that was a really hard situation too, but I'd never seen that. That's the day I noticed the beauty, the magic. There were 18 or 20 of us at the table that day, and I saw everyone get up, give her a hug, console her, but it didn't stop there. They made a literal plan of action on the back of a paper napkin. What she needs to do, how to address it, who to go to. Someone gave CEO-level advice, and I remember you with your CHRO hat jumping in and saying, "No, no, no, this is going to raise HR issues, you need to navigate it a certain way." That day I saw the sisterhood in action. I saw the magic in action, and realized we'd created a board of advisors for each and every one of us.

Erica Rooney: Right? Everyone who has a problem has a senior brain trust ready to step up and support them. What I love about the framework is you get to go past, "Who are you, what do you do, where do you live," which we get stuck in all the time, and it goes a layer deeper.

Siri Swahari: One more thing, to finish that story. We usually stay one or two hours. That day we stayed three and a half hours solving that problem. While I was walking to my car, the leader who'd had that challenge tapped my shoulder, and told me she'd been depressed for the past few days, three days she didn't get out of bed, didn't take care of her kid, didn't go to work. She was so down. But she pushed herself to show up when the happy hour notification came, and said, "I'm so glad, Siri, I showed up. I'm glad I was able to attend. I can go to work tomorrow." That was my turn to tear up in a parking lot.

That's the night, on our WhatsApp thread, as soon as I got home, I said, "Ladies, I realize I will never find time, but the world needs it. Let's go."

Erica Rooney: I do remember when you did that. Let's expand, because I was like, "We just spent three hours together, what else is she texting?" And the beauty of it is, you said that on a Wednesday or Thursday evening, and by that weekend...

Siri Swahari: We were rocking and rolling. We had 15 states show up saying, "We want to be part of it." And again, that speaks to how much the need is out there.

Erica Rooney: I love that origin story. I love this rose, bud, thorn, and I normally end with a very familiar question, but I want to end today with your rose, bud, and thorn right now, because I'm like, "This is so cool, we really got to showcase it." So what's your rose, bud, and thorn, your wins, evolving, and challenges?

Siri Swahari: My win is my daughter just graduated, with the highest honors, double majoring in computer science and neuroscience. She accepted a seat at NYU Grossman School of Medicine, with a full scholarship. That's a big win we're still cherishing. I'm going to use this for at least two more times.

Erica Rooney: Yeah, absolutely.

Siri Swahari: Evolving, I'm the executive sponsor of the AI team at CGI, so it's a work in progress. Like anything in AI, with your other hat, you're aware of the complexities, the exponential changes, finalizing project initiatives, figuring out what's right for our ecosystem, what has the right foundation. That's been evolving and keeping me pretty busy these days. And challenge, something physical: I did a stupid thing lifting something too heavy, sprained my neck, and today's the first day I've been able to move it. So, after four days, I'm here.

Erica Rooney: Oh my goodness, that's too funny. This is how it goes, we can speak work, personal, or say there's nothing, whatever's on top of your mind. That's how WEC works. I love it. Well, Siri, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. It was so awesome to have you, hear the whole story, and learn more about you. Thanks for being here.

Siri Swahari: Thank you for inviting me. It's really nice to get to share my story with others, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Erica Rooney: If this episode resonated with you, don't let it stop here. Send it to a woman you care about, a colleague, a friend, someone who's been on your mind while you were listening. These conversations are meant to be shared, and you never know what one small shift can unlock for someone else. And if you haven't already, make sure you're following the podcast. Leave a rating and write a quick review. It helps more women find this space, and keeps these conversations going. If you're ready to go deeper, come a little closer. Send me a DM, and I'll invite you to sit in on a live HER Collective session as my personal guest. No pressure, no strings attached. But you get to experience it, feel the room, and see what happens when women start moving together. Until next time, y'all, keep going, keep choosing differently, and let's smash the ceilings and close the gaps.